UKC Forums - How many have ever actualy????

Pages (2): [1] 2 »
Show all 35 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- How many have ever actualy???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=459250)

Posted by rockett42 on 10-31-2011 08:07 PM:

How many have ever actualy????

Even hunted with a stud dog before you breed to him.. Prob less than 20%.. If you did you would not breed to him. Some people that call themselves breeders are a joke..............

Posted by Bryan K Webb on 10-31-2011 08:14 PM:

I agree i'm sure more people do need to go with the stud dog. However, remember you are getting what he is reproducing not necessarily what he is. Also, most stud dogs are kept up and not hunted much, so how can you get an accurate account what they really are?

Posted by Dwils on 10-31-2011 08:27 PM:

Ive either handled it or owned it. It will always be that way for me what I got is just as good as any other stud and I know all the strengths and weaknesses of my hounds and what to expect

__________________
Home of :
GrNtCh PKC ch Skuna River Fred Bear
GrNtCh Skuna River Bear
NtCh PKCCh Skuna River Faith
NtCh PKC Ch Catch This
Silver Ch River Bend Lacey

Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-31-2011 08:30 PM:

Breeders hunt with a sire's offspring. What a sire does in the woods is rarely what you can expect from its offspring.

A prepotent stud is very few and far between. In fact, most people call them a freak of nature.

In the last 15 years, I have only bred a female to a male who I hadn't hunted with his offspring one time. I did spend a great deal of time talking to owners of dogs out of the male. The only reason I didn't hunt with the offspring was my children were still young at that time, and travel just wasn't in the picture.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by Chiggers on 10-31-2011 08:54 PM:

Re: How many have ever actualy????

quote:
Originally posted by rockett42
Even hunted with a stud dog before you breed to him.. Prob less than 20%.. If you did you would not breed to him. Some people that call themselves breeders are a joke..............

I never hunt with the Stud Dog, learned my lesson on that long ago, I carried a female in heat a long ways, guy had 2 stud dogs, was going 2 hunt with the dogs and decide which one, after we hunted i could not breed to either stud, went home without breeding and it was to late to make other plans, so now I Never hunt with the Stud, if they offer I say H@@ no.

__________________
Perry Metcalf.. Go Big Blue !

Posted by gfults on 10-31-2011 11:40 PM:

Re: How many have ever actualy????

quote:
Originally posted by rockett42
Even hunted with a stud dog before you breed to him.. Prob less than 20%.. If you did you would not breed to him. Some people that call themselves breeders are a joke..............

Why would you want to? The smart thing would be to hunt with his pups. After all, when you breed to a stud dog and your bitch has pups, youre not going to get the stud dog. Youre going to get his pups!

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by Tully on 10-31-2011 11:58 PM:

Stud or pups

The "You get what they throw" is definitely a factor, but somewhere down the line you will see him come out.

This I think is the great part of selective line bred dogs. Odds are with hounds that have been bred this way for generations you will get what they are, what their daddy was, and what they throw. When you intensify the traits you like, your odds are way better of getting what you like. I think it would be extremely hard to go breed to a stud that is a product of a full outcross.

__________________
It's just a game!
Tully Beeghly
Liscomb, IA

Grnitech Grch4 $KC Ch Sky's Bawlin' Blue Rocket
Rocket's Dowd Creed Wack
Emma's Blue Power Amigo
Ch Rocket's T&T Gnarly Blue Smash
00 Dowd Creek Wack
Rocket's Dowd Creek Lil Deuce

641-352-0706

Posted by on 11-01-2011 12:04 AM:

I've only made a couple crosses, but I hunted with every stud before breeding to them. I had already made up my mind to breed to them when I jumped in the truck and went to see them go, but I wanted to see for myself that the dog backed up the research I had done.

Posted by GA DAWG on 11-01-2011 01:10 AM:

Yall do the breeding. I'll just hunt em I've never raised but one hound litter. That was enough for me I recken.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by on 11-01-2011 01:20 AM:

I’ve raised my share of litters. All for my personal use. I have only breed to one “known” stud and had no luck. All the rest have been local coon dogs most I have hunted with several times. That being said I would still breed to a proven stud that I had not hunted with, but so far I haven’t run out of local coondogs to breed to.

Posted by JB PITCREW on 11-01-2011 01:52 AM:

Re: How many have ever actualy????

quote:
Originally posted by rockett42
Even hunted with a stud dog before you breed to him.. Prob less than 20%.. If you did you would not breed to him. Some people that call themselves breeders are a joke..............

How many times is a no account,worthless gyp packed to a reproducing stud and he be expected to perform miracles...When nothing comes out of the litter its all the studs fault too."thats where the joke is" The female has an equal part on reproducing ability and traits. Not all crosses are going to work,No matter how well the stud produces.
I agree...you get what THEY reproduce not what THEY are.

__________________
PLATTE RIVER ENGLISH
M.D. Jameson
816-807-1580
Home of Previous #1 Reproducing English Coonhound 15.49%
GRNTCH GRCH 'PR' Briar Valley Nite Prowler "semen stored”
GRNTCH CH Dee's Nite Prowling Blitz "semen stored”
'PR' Northridge JoJoe's Blue Thunder
'PR' Northridge Icky’s Old Sandy

ENGLISH HOUNDS SINCE 1969....If you breed for papers instead of traits,You deserve what you end up with...Kelley Stagner

RIP........................................
GRNTCH GRCH Briar Valley Nite Prowler
GRNTCH GRCH Wilcox's Thunder JoJoe
GRNTCH GRCH Northridge Red Loopy
GRNTCH GRCH Northridge JoJo's Feebie
GRNTCH CH Dee's Nite Prowling Blitz
GRNTCH CH Northridge Jo Joe’s Icky

Posted by kiwanis on 11-01-2011 02:19 AM:

You get what they are if they are linebred, you get what they produce if they are scatterbred.

Posted by dustin15 on 11-01-2011 02:25 AM:

i hunted with stylish tank and he looked just as i was told cause he didnt have pups old enough to hunt...i would do it again in that case

__________________
Tuff river kennels
Owned by: Dustin Marcum and Eddie Holliday
GR NITE CH 'PR' Tuff River Skinner(rip)
GR NITE CH PR' Tuff River Angel
GR NITE CH PKC CH PR' Tuff River Crank
RIP GR NITE CH PR' Marcum's Wild Solo (handler)

Posted by rockett42 on 11-01-2011 04:38 AM:

Tully and Kiwanas. Best answer you could give. I believe that exacly..... Been breeding horses and cows for 40 yrs. It has been proven over and over again. You can produce his likeness if done right. That is why ever good coondog is not a producer. Very few are line bred the right way...

Posted by l.lyle on 11-01-2011 05:40 AM:

I have bought several pups I did not own the sire nor the dam. I bought a pup on account of how much noise Ma and Pa was making in the Big Time. Full page adds every month was a must not just an occassional world championship. I wanted to see trucks and all every month, Why not? a pup like that you can get for less than double of what you pay for has beens and flashes in the pan.

I have yet to have a female good enough to haul off and get bred to a wonderful big name studhoss.

Everything else I have had a male or a female that I thought enough of to buy a pup I thought would make a good cross on. But by the time one would flunk out and I'd get another and it make the grade and old enough to prove itself to me , I only got one litter before the bitch was too old. But I would say OK , now I got a great young male that I think the world of but I won't breed him back to his mamma. So I would buy a female pup and start the process of training and culling and finally breeding all over again. In the meantime I would have bred him to some other bitch that might even be of a different breed that had made the grade for me. Those cross breeds were just a proving ground for me till I could finally get to the line bred X I wanted. GRANTED , I could have linebred the whole time plum easy, to a bitch that was not a coondog yet enough to pass my muster , and produced linebred things. But it would not have been known coondog to coondog.

These guys are right , a bitch is more than half of it. If she has traits you like would you really want to double up on that trait?

Posted by capt_agricultur on 11-01-2011 12:38 PM:

always

hunt with ....stud & as many of his of spring

Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-01-2011 01:44 PM:

Hunting with the stud helps , but that's only part of it ... it's not a shortcut or a cure-all .

Good references and pups doing well from a stud will do more to cover the questions of him being a good coondog than you can do to cover the chances that no matter what .... your gyp might not click with him ....

If you crunch the numbers , you aren't gonna see a trend that suggests breeding done where guys didn't hunt with the sire throw a vastly bigger percentage of culls ...

If you can't make a case with real life experience, solid numbers and then show how your alternative is better .... then it's just a blind man on a soapbox ...

Posted by John D on 11-01-2011 03:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rockett42
Been breeding horses and cows for 40 yrs. It has been proven over and over again. You can produce his likeness if done right. That is why ever good coondog is not a producer. Very few are line bred the right way...

I think you got the right idea. Coonhound breeders are light years behind successful breeders of about anything else. To breed to a sorry coondog because of what he reproduces is the sorriest excuse of a breeding practice there ever was.

Lets say you breed a sorry coondog and get a coondog. Someone will then take that dog, breed it to another dog thats out of a cull. They will get mostly culls and then they will wonder why? Duh.

Well, the reason they got culls is because their pups have a cull for a grandsire and probably some other culls sprinkled in the first couple generations. They got exactly what they bred for. They might be hunting a coondog but they were breeding for culls and they got culls .....all because they didn't go hunting with the dogs they were breeding to and select based on what they saw.

Breeding coondogs is not as much of a mystery and not as complicated as people make it out to be.

Back to the question, I've bred to about 15 different studs over the years. I hunted with all but 1. I've gotten on a plane and flew several states away just to go hunting with a stud. Several times, I've driven most of the day just to go hunting. I've hi-jacked family vacations to go hunt with a stud one night.

No, I did not learn everything there was to know about a dog in one night. But I did get some idea of hunt style, tracking ability, locating, treeing, mouth, etc. Its more about the principle of it than anything.

The fact that an owner will put his stud in the woods in front of a stranger means alot. It means they have nothing to hide. Excuses and big talk doesn't tree coons. Its not a coincidence that the guys that will shut up and hunt are the ones that have the coondogs, anyway.

If a stud owner will take me hunting, they've probably taken some other coonhunters, hunting as well. Word gets around on a dog if you can figure out who to believe and who not to. You start getting a clear picture of the dog.

__________________

Click here to visit The B&T Coonhunters Message Forum for news, views, open discussion, ads, and event winners in the B&T Breed (Registration, with your full name, required)

Click here to see my Dog List

Posted by rattrap on 11-01-2011 03:54 PM:

I will!!

I totaly agree. I will turn mine loose any night you want to go! What suits me might not suit you! Eye sight will cure the blind. Dual Grand THE LEGENDARY TRAP is for inspection any time. Will also show pups and young dogs out of different females so you can see the traits that he puts in his pups!

__________________
RIP DUAL GRAND 'PR'THE RAT TRAP
3 X WORLD TOP TWENTY FINALSIST
4 X WORLD TOP 100
6 X WORLD RQE WINNER
WV STATE CHAMPION
ALLEN SHOE GRAND NITE CHAMPION
YOU WILL BE MISSED!!

RIP OLE BUDDY YOU ARE DEARLY MISSED!!
HOME OF Grand Nite Ch Grand Ch 'PR' THE LEGENDARY TRAP
2011 SETWA Days Over All Winner!!
First Place Grand Nite Champion Fri.
Second Place Grand Nite Champion Sat.
Double cast winner SETWA Days
2nd Place Nite Ch Both Nights!!
qualified for the 2010 world hunt and show!!
2011 RQE Winner 1st place Shoals, WV
2011 Lee Crawford 7th place

GRAND NITE CH FRANK'S DOODLEBERRY
TOP 16 AUTUNM OAKS 2011
2012 ALLEN SHOE GRAND NITE CH WINNER
2012 SETWA DAYS FRI NIGHT GRAND NITE CH FIRST PLACE
2012 SETWA DAYS SAT NIGHT GRAND NITE CH SECOND PLACE
2012 FIRST PLACE SHOALS

Grand Nite Ch Ice Cold Sweat Bead
Top Twenty of the UKC 2011 World Hunt

GRAND NITE CH FRANK'S LUCY
MINI SLAM WINNER AT AUTUMN OAKS

Proud Member of Team LINCOLN
304-855-6224 FOR INFORMATION!

Posted by greg stull on 11-01-2011 04:03 PM:

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT HUNTING WITH A STUD WHEN THEY TAKE A GOOD FOR NOTHING FEMALE TO THE WHATS BLOWING THE WORLD UP STUD AT THE TIME AND THINK THIS CULL OF A FEMALE IS GOING TO THROW WORLD BEATER PUPS. THE PUP ARE BOUGHT BUY PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT WEARING OUT BOOTS. THE PUPS DON'T EVEN MAKE GOOD DEER DOGS AND TWO YEARS LATER THE CULL FEMALE OWNER WANTS TO BASH THE STUD. EVEN THE ONE THE STUD OWNER SHOWED THEM.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-01-2011 04:04 PM:

Hunting with a stud one night is far from how science assesses the truth ...

Solid references that have hunted with a dog over a season or two will tell you more than you can find out yourself in one hunt ...

Nobody is gonna argue that brood bitches are bad and hunting with studs isn't a good thing ....

But as long as people can do both , and worse , and still sale their pups and end up with something to hunt ... it won't change and the only people that will agree with you ... are the ones that already do .

You can't change the mind of someone who is happy with what they have or is successful with what they are doing.

Too many people get good pups from studs without hunting with them to argue against it .... it's futile and then some.

Yall talk about cows and horses ... you think guys take mares and run em' against studs before breeding ? No ... they go by pedigree and past performance .

Guys ship bull sperm all over to farms sight unseen and breed cows ... milk cow people don't care to see the bull , they just want to know pedigree and performance.

Hunting with a dog is subjective to the conditions and our opinion ... you don't make progress with subjective results.

Pedigree , genetics , long term performance can be judged objectively and there is a truth to it ....

I like these debates .... but in the end ... does anyone ever change their mind or their actions based on them ?

Posted by John D on 11-01-2011 05:07 PM:

Breeding principles are the same for anything thats bred. Identify the traits you want, evaluate the stock for those traits and select and cull based on those traits.

Beef cattle, dairy cattle or coonhounds, it all still goes back to the principles. Can you really figure out what traits you want? Are you capable of evaluating those traits and putting forth effort to find stock that has those traits? Will you do what it takes in the way of travel, expense, and lost sleep to find others that have similar goals and trade genetics back and forth to improve?

Posted by kiwanis on 11-01-2011 05:39 PM:

I think more dogs are culled as a result of not being given a chance than the effort it took to make the breeding. All of the rest of this discussion is for internet sake.

Posted by l.lyle on 11-01-2011 06:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by kiwanis
I think more dogs are culled as a result of not being given a chance than the effort it took to make the breeding. All of the rest of this discussion is for internet sake.

That's true too. And we can name some matings out there that will probably end up in the winners circle. Why? Because those pups are off big name dogs that are the going thing PLUS they get in the hands of trainers who want to deal with them. They think"man, this is something special" so they put in the time and make it special. In most cases "special" is what wins in competition. In other cases "special" is getting the type of dog you have been breeding for and it may never see a comp hunt.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 11-01-2011 06:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
Breeding principles are the same for anything thats bred. Identify the traits you want, evaluate the stock for those traits and select and cull based on those traits.

Beef cattle, dairy cattle or coonhounds, it all still goes back to the principles. Can you really figure out what traits you want? Are you capable of evaluating those traits and putting forth effort to find stock that has those traits? Will you do what it takes in the way of travel, expense, and lost sleep to find others that have similar goals and trade genetics back and forth to improve?

NOt really , livestock are bred for a single purpose and can handle more inbreeding because the side effects are a non-issue as long as it doesn't effect their main goal.

they don't care if livestock are retarded , shy , mean , etc .... and they don't haul laying hens , cows or show pigs across the nation to get bred ...

You are saying it's the same ... but it's not and they are ahead of us because their task is easier .

Breeding coondogs , roosters , or race horses is different than livestock ... they are evaluated in a way that is not science .. it is based on competition that is subjective and ever changing ... not on production of eggs , milk or meat that is a level playing field with hard numbers .. it's nothing the same .

I have spent the money and the effort to breed to frozen semen , import dogs from Europe , drove halfway across the country to breed .... but those things are all uphill ways of breeding.

Breeding close to home with numbers , experience and hard culling on your side is better in the long run ....

Just remember , when you brag about traveling so far to breed ... you're breeding to a dog that those locals have in their backyard ... are they supposed to in turn drive to your backyard in order to better the breed or breed local , lol .....

You go home and have the pick of one litter ... from one gyp ... while the breeder has the pick of many pups from many gyps .

It's all talk without some facts ... when I look at the reproducers lists and read the profiles from good breeders .... breeding to the dog with the best repuatation within your reach works more of the time than anything else.

Or you could pick a pup from a gyp you hunted with that you didn't even like and he could end up an outstanding producer anyway ... ring a bell ? This dog has the same initials as me ..D.D. !

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:36 AM.

Pages (2): [1] 2 »
Show all 35 posts from this thread on one page