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Coffee Shop Philosophy

Maybe some of you are lucky enough to still have one of these around, but I remember a day when there were several local diners and truck stops that old coon hunters met at, to discuss dogs and differing ideas. Sure they told some lies and tall tales, and occasionally talked, what we would now call smack, about each other's dogs and who killed the most coon. But for the most part, I think there was a mutual respect for one another's thoughts, philosophy, and even dogs.

Today, most of those diners have closed up, and unfortunately, many of the old coon hunters have passed on. And in there place, we have web forums. Which I beleive is still a place to share ideas and philosophies, but unfortunately many see them as a place to trash one another's ideas, prove each other wrong or turn it into some sort of competition for who can make a fool of themselves.

I'm not sure if it's a sign of the times, a change in attitudes or whether some folks beleive that forums are a place purely for debate as opposed to just sharing ideas, without challenging other's.

So... here's my experiment. I would like to use this thread to share various ideas and philosophies, without challenging or questioning others. And, to help prevent those that would come in late, and not realize the intent, maybe we start each post with:

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I'll start it off...

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I understand out-crosses and line-breeding are necessary to develop and improve breed, but I still feel there's a standard that should be adhered to. I agree that you may need or want to breed to a hound that doesn't comply with the standard, to acquire a specific trait in your bloodline, but when you keep line-breeding to hounds that don't conform to the standard aren't you really creating a new breed (and standard) as opposed to improving it?

David Schmidt

dont know if there are any of those coffie shops left.......but theres still plenty of "coffie shop coonhunters" around. the ones who accualy make it to the woods about 1 time a month :/

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Re: I'll start it off...

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I understand out-crosses and line-breeding are necessary to develop and improve breed, but I still feel there's a standard that should be adhered to. I agree that you may need or want to breed to a hound that doesn't comply with the standard, to acquire a specific trait in your bloodline, but when you keep line-breeding to hounds that don't conform to the standard aren't you really creating a new breed (and standard) as opposed to improving it?

David Schmidt

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

It's is a darn shame that coffee shops and diners have gone the way of the outdoor theater. When I was a kid, every coon hunt ended at 6 & 15 which was our local 24 hour diner. It is still there and still a popular diner with the local farmers but hasn't kept coon hunters hours for 15 years.
There are a very few of the old coon hunters diners still left, the one that comes to my mind is the Wanna Cup in Shipshewanna. That place still gets a daily dose of hardcore coon hunter talk, the only problem is most of it is in Dutch. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I gave up arguing with the Amish a long time go.

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Im with ya on the Amish Jim, its a battle lost before it starts aint it.


how ya been btw, and whats ol Elvis up to now days?

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We still have one of those little diners here in Holden MO. and not just the hunters gather around. Lots of the farmers come in to vist and have coffee so us hunters can get to know them and may find more places to hunt . Just have to keep your nose clean. Also the coffee is still 10 cents a cup with all the refills you want.What else could you ask for . John Roberson.

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Joe - the official or formal breed standard is what I was referring to. And your point and my point are pretty much the same.

My thought was that if someone was breeding walkers (for instance) to draw-in specific traits to their bloodlines, but to gather those traits, they had to out-cross to something that looked like a cur or a bloodhound, that was fine once or twice. But if they are constantly breeding a bloodhound or cur looking dog, then they're not refining the breed, they're redefining it.

The same goes for traits. If they want a dog that's a quicker tree dog, because it can really drift a track, but the stud they have in mind is also mostly silent. (I realize this is not a perfect example, because those two traits may both affect the time to the tree.) They need to be careful that they don't develop a line of dogs that are totally silent.

Another example, is a big game hunter you and I both know, that doesn't really care about "breeds". He breeds for traits and abilities and doesn't care about the colors he crosses to do so. Which is perfectly fine, but I think some breed owners are doing the same thing, and think they're helping the breed, and in reality they're on their way to creating a new breed.

David Schmidt

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

John - that's great news for you! I had forgotten about an old grain elevator we used to have around here, where folks would gather for coffee in the morning, and getting places to hunt was another great byproduct.

Dave-

I wish all hounds had mouths on em like your Boom dog ; people would no longer strike house dogs!!

Daniel

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*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.**

Whoa Dave, I'm pretty sure you have the cart before the horse.....

I'm less concerned about what you are saying than the guys that read the magazine ad and decide that the current "flavor of the month" is the perfect cross for his female.

I know from first hand experience that maintaining enough females to study traits, and to breed for specific traits is a very expensive proposition. Not many folks out there thick headed enough to "pay the price" to breed generation after generation of dogs....to truly line breed dogs in the manner that you are suggesting.

I would venture to say that the biggest decision factor involved in breeding hounds today is "public opinion". Better said, how am I going to sell the excess pups. I'd bet you could go on this forum right now and find no fewer than 10 posts of guys "fishing" for responses on "what to breed to".... Selective breeding is gone by the wayside to "popular" breeding.

A "breed" is defined as such: A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.

By mixing different breeds, you certainly may introduce traits, but let's get down to brass tacks.... If you introduce one hound breed into another to "IMPROVE" the traits, you are not creation new distinguishable characteristics. An English Coonhound with a great nose....is still an English hound. A Walker with lighting fast locate times, or track speed is still a Walker.

Now, if I wanted to create a new "breed" of hound it would take hundreds of individuals, and scores of generations of very selective breeding to produce a new breed in the manner that you describe. I don't know how long our newest member of the hound family, the Leopard Hounds, have been around, but it's been quite a long time.

What you are talking about is nothing more than hybridization of the current hound breeds. The problem is that once you do that, it is very difficult to maintain the very traits that you started looking for, because there are many more gene pools to pull from when a litter is born.

You are swimming in the deep end of the pool without a life jacket Dave....

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

OK... this is what I'm talking about! A healthy exchange of ideas and philosophy. Of course Joe and I can also do this from the cab of the truck, any given week, but nonetheless.

I agree it does take generations, but with dogs, generations can be pretty quick, relatively speaking.

In fact, if you think about the majority of hounds I hunted with as a kid (not that long ago), they were mostly pack hounds, that covered anything, and if they didn't find something in the first few hundred yards of a woods, they "checked in". Now look at the dogs we hunt today, which have been this way for at least 5-10 years. And so... it doesn't take long to change the face of a breed or breeds.

And if that "flavor of the week" has short ears, an under-bite and is virtually silent, before you know it...

David Schmidt

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Daniel - believe it or not I've had people strike Boom, though!

When it comes to breeding or training coonhounds .... personal experience with the family of dogs you have is the most crucial element in your success .

So many of us breed and train without knowing what is behind that stud we bred to or pup we bought .... I'd rather breed to a local dog I know throws something I can use than run off and breed blind and then train those pups blind .

.

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I have always owned registered dogs and always will. My views on registered dogs have changed over the years and my view on what others think about registered dogs also have changed over the years.

I think way too many people get caught up in the dogs pedigree and over look what the dog is actually doing. If your going to use the pedigree for anything then use it as a tool to find yourself a pup that should have coondog bred into it. Once you own the dog, put the papers away on the shelf and concentrate on the dog itself. If it does not perform to coonhound standards then do the right thing, no matter how many champions the papers show.

I have people come by here all the time with bear hounds and hog dogs in their truck. None have papers and most are crossbred with maybe one of the parents being out of registered stock. Funny thing is these people don't care about the papers, they just care about catching game. Many of the hounds I see from crossed up stock meet certain breed standards better than dogs that come from totally registered stock. I have seen some extremenly well built hounds that looked like Walkers whos mom was a grade mixed up bluetick or black and tan. I saw a dog the other day that was a beautiful redtick looking dog whos mom was a bluetick and dad a grade mixed up walker.

Guess I am wondering why so many people put down grade dogs when people breeding them to catch game seem to get good results and dogs that look better than the registered ones. lol

Bruce , I hear ya' .... obviously the genetics in all our coonhounds are similiar and the genes for traits mean more than breed or line .

But ... I have to laugh when someone has a nice dog that is a crossbred from two registered parents preaches the value of crossbreds ....


Pups prove the parents , plain and simple .... if you want to prove your dog or cross is awesome , it has to be done with their offspring before you have something beyond just one good cross .....

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

You have a good point Bruce! After all, the standards defined a breed that met some purpose. Each have their strengths and weaknesses and different traits, but the primary attributes were on purpose, for a specific reason... tracking ability, chasing speed, endurance, etc.

David Schmidt

quote:

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil
When it comes to breeding or training coonhounds .... personal experience with the family of dogs you have is the most crucial element in your success .

So many of us breed and train without knowing what is behind that stud we bred to or pup we bought .... I'd rather breed to a local dog I know throws something I can use than run off and breed blind and then train those pups blind .

---

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I have been thinking of crossing a good english hound with a good walker. Would you consider me making a new breed? I have put tons of research time and thought into this I have a possible female breed worthy and a possible stud. I know alot of folks frown upon crossing breeds but to me i feel we need to intoduce some new blood. What do yall think?

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Jeremy Harris

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

In my opinion, folks can make whatever cross they want, to whatever end, we just need to remember the consequences. As far as making a new breed... there would have to be a lot of those crosses, line breeding and in-breeding to create a whole new breed.

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I was just thinking that we are all after improving our preffered breed but there is no new blood to breed to and I do understand that one bad outcross can undo years of line breeding but im talking about doing a very though out and researched outcross. Not one of those fly by night crosses. I think that is a major problem is all these that breed to the next big thing stud dog.

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Jeremy Harris

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

As Joe pointed out, it takes many generations to create a "line" and I can't even imagine how long to develop a whole new "breed."

I guess I would also question the genetic trait differences (other than color and markings) between English and Walker. There are always specific dogs with different capabilities or strengths, but I beleive the genetic background is very similar. As opposed to a Walker and say a Black and Tan or Bluetick.

I think the opportunity we're missing is the power of the internet, for information sharing. I can't imagine shopping for a car or appliance, etc. without first learining everything about it, on-line. I also know there are a lot of folks on forums telling you how trashy a dog or "line" is, or how a specific dog can walk on water, but how much candid assessments about a dog or line's ability do you really see.

I realize there's not a lot of people that had personally hunted with all the famous lines, to do a direct comparison, but wouldn't it be refreshing to see someone outline a dog or line's strength and weaknesses, without exagerating or bashing them???

I've never hunted with a perfect dog, nor does it take perfection to be very capable and succesful in the hunts. So why not talk about a specific line as being strong in X, but somewhat weak in Y. Or that a dog's offspring are on average very Z, but not so W...

David Schmidt

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Dave...

From the sounds of our conversation yesterday....you better change the topic to "Does anyone know of a good tracking collar".....

Did you find her?

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by bigdiezel79
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I was just thinking that we are all after improving our preffered breed but there is no new blood to breed to and I do understand that one bad outcross can undo years of line breeding but im talking about doing a very though out and researched outcross. Not one of those fly by night crosses. I think that is a major problem is all these that breed to the next big thing stud dog.

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by bigdiezel79
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I have been thinking of crossing a good english hound with a good walker. Would you consider me making a new breed? I have put tons of research time and thought into this I have a possible female breed worthy and a possible stud. I know alot of folks frown upon crossing breeds but to me i feel we need to intoduce some new blood. What do yall think?

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