UKC Forums - BAYER TREE and SHRUB SPRAY

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Posted by oklared on 06-15-2010 05:37 PM:

BAYER TREE and SHRUB SPRAY

HOW MUCH DO YOU PUT ON A 50lb DOG EVERY MONTH FOR FLEAs

Posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD on 06-15-2010 08:15 PM:

1 cc per 10# of dog weight so 5 cc for 50#

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Posted by longshot on 06-15-2010 10:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD
1 cc per 10# of dog weight so 5 cc for 50#

I think thats a bit on the light side. Most people I know use about 15 CC's for a 50 lb dog.

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Posted by ncbumdog on 06-17-2010 01:06 AM:

Is the amount you are talking about of concentrate or after diluting

Posted by glynnsdawgs63 on 06-17-2010 02:54 AM:

4 cc per 10 lbs bodyweight straight out of the bottle

Glynn

Posted by longshot on 06-17-2010 03:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by glynnsdawgs63
4 cc per 10 lbs bodyweight straight out of the bottle

Glynn

Yup , thats what I've always understood to be correct too. That would be 20CC;s for a 50 pounder.. I've always used 15 to 17 CC's and never had a problem.... Be advised though that this is for FLEAS... It does very little for ticks.

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Posted by oppsumhater80 on 06-20-2010 03:47 AM:

I have been useing it for about 5 yrs now and use around 17 cc as well and I have had great and I mean great results with it for fleas and ticks both and I hunt fairly hard and I have pulled maybe 2 or 3 ticks off my dogs I also put 50 50 water and put it in spray bottle and spray it around kennel once a month as well and rarely see flies around best product on the market for money and goes long way

Posted by Lee Stocking on 06-20-2010 04:13 AM:

What are the ingredients and percentage of your Bayer product? Theres so many different products.

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Posted by l.lyle on 06-20-2010 07:18 AM:

You are right, there are many produts. One is called Tree and Shrub Plant Starter. It is a 4-7-4 fertilizer with 0.69% Imidacloprid insecticide. it is designed to throw the packets in the planting hole and it dissolves. If you put that product in a spayer it will stop up the nozzle. Another product is Rose and Flower Insect Killer . It is a premix, not a concentrate, and it has been diluted to 0.0015% Beta Cyfluthrin and 0.012% Imidacloprid. I'm assuming that would be about the neighborhood of the dilution of the original Tree and Shrub Concentrate most people use that you would want to end up with. I would not use 1cc per ten lbs of dog of the concentrate. The premix comes in a finger pump bottle like Adams Flea Spray. Adams is the best I ever saw at knocking fleas dead instantly but if you turn the dog back in fleas they'll be covered again in 6 hrs.

Posted by john nannemann on 06-20-2010 12:32 PM:

dominion tree and shrub is exactly the same product as the bayer- cheaper and available at your local feed stores.

Posted by droopy_dog2004 on 06-20-2010 04:16 PM:

I uses 10cc on my hounds

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Posted by on 06-20-2010 09:20 PM:

Are you guys just pulling these amounts out of your butt? You do realize that this is poison not designed for use with animals? They might be fine for several years and then one day you will be wondering why your hound died as a 6 year old with liver failure. Stop being cheap.

Posted by longshot on 06-20-2010 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
Are you guys just pulling these amounts out of your butt? You do realize that this is poison not designed for use with animals? They might be fine for several years and then one day you will be wondering why your hound died as a 6 year old with liver failure. Stop being cheap.

I agree with you Joey about using products not designed for dogs. It can be very dangerous and one should not scrimp money for health , BUT there is not any '' butt pulling'' here.

If we are talking about the product with just imidacloprid , then they are duplicating the dosage used in K9 Advantage dor dogs...
The active ingredient in Bayer Tree & Shrub is 1.47% imidacloprid - the same ingredient which they market in Advantage flea control for dogs in a 9.1% solution.

Using the correct dosage about 15 CC's will work... like i said above , it didn't work very well for me on ticks, but it will kill fleas.

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Posted by Tarascon on 06-20-2010 09:54 PM:

Ok, got a question for you Tree and Shrub fans. What is the rest of the product for trees and shrubs made of? The part that is not
imidacloprid? You know, the other 98%+. Are you sure you want to put "inert ingredients" on your hound? Especially when you don't know what they are and the product was designed for plants, not animals?

This is not the same thing at all as using Ivomec cattle wormer for heartworm in dogs. Or the Pancur paste labelled for horses on hounds.

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Posted by Dogwood English on 06-20-2010 10:11 PM:

i have been using for years and my oldest dog is 12 yrs old and several almost that age. they all act like they are young dogs and i have seen no ill effects

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Posted by oklared on 06-20-2010 11:55 PM:

The med. that paople take has other ingredients in them that no one knows what they are. The best test is the exsperience others who have taken a chance have had. I recall when they first started useing Ivomec some said dont use it because is hard on the dogs liver but we all use it now. If you will look up that ingreedient you can put it on vegetables of which you are going to eat. So i say if you want to put it on your dogo it, if you dont trust it then dont do it.

Posted by Tarascon on 06-21-2010 01:27 AM:

No problem. I'm not going to do it. Don't worry. Several of mine have lived to be 15, one was nearly 18, very likely because I don't do stuff like put shrub insecticide on them.

Short story. Several years ago I was broodmare manager for a herd of Thorobred and Arab mares. The owner insisted that we use a Farnham feed though fly control product called Equitrol. It was listed as safe for all age horses and ok for breeding stock. Supposedly all the product went through the horse's digestive system and ended up in the manure and killed the flies.

First, we had trouble with the foals and horrible diarrhea. Then, I could get the mares bred, they would ultrasound in foal early and then the pregnancies just died. We went through a couple of cycles like this, the vet and I could not figure out what was going on. The one mare that was bred before we started feeding the fly stuff stayed pregnant, but lost her foal late in her pregnancy.

It finally dawned on me that the only thing we were doing that I had never done before was feed the Equitrol. The vet and I agreed that we were going to tell the owner we had to stop using that. We did and the next go round, all the mares got pregnant and stayed that way. Later on, I found out that we were not the only ones that had problems with that product. Seems that not all of it passed through the horse, some was absorbed and there were a lot of problems with it, not just reproductive issues. In fact, there was a $1M+ lawsuit that Farnham lost. http://www.fmjlaw.com/userFiles/Far...ease%5B1%5D.pdf The product that Farnham sells now as Equitrol II has a different chemical in it.

Do you think I'd feed it to my own horses? No way in h**l. And I would not put shrub product on my dogs for fleas, either.

Posted by Tarascon on 06-21-2010 01:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
The med. that paople take has other ingredients in them that no one knows what they are.

That is not true. Not at all. The FDA would not allow a human medicine to be sold with ingredients in that that nobody knew what they were. Would not happen. The same is not so for insecticides. The "inert ingredients" on the list could be anything and it's ok. Some inert ingredients are more toxic than the active ingredients.

Posted by droopy_dog2004 on 06-21-2010 01:32 AM:

People have been using Bayer Tree and Shrub on dogs for years. No problems what so ever. I dont see what the big deal is?

Posted by Tarascon on 06-21-2010 01:46 AM:

No big deal. Your dogs, your choice.

Posted by l.lyle on 06-21-2010 03:09 AM:

None of us are pharmasists I recon. If you want to put Nitrogen in your garden Urea and Amonia are two N sources that are less than 50% N.. Why don't they make a 100% product? If they did you couldnt handle it. Alot of products have inert ingredients in them to make it easier to handle and mix. Most of the time they are either water, alchohol or an oil.

Imidacloprid is LABELLED to be used on trees and shrubs and Roses and Flowers. The product was very likely not developed to be used on those plants, it was developed to kill certain insects. It finally got LABELLED, after EPA scrutiny, to be used on non-edible plants. Imidacloprid is used on cereal and grain crops, vegetables, coffee, Brazil nuts etc. in other countries. Which we probably eat.

If the target is an insect, to some extent to which it is applied to plant Vs animal is questionable since an insect is neither. For that matter, which specific animal? If you wash out a cat kennel with pine oil you can have a dead cat while it won't hurt a dog at all. Alot of it depends on the experiece of others

If you use a product for which it was not labelled and your dog dies, good luck with your lawsuit, even if you press charges you will likely be the one in jail. Every day you see commercials by Shyster lawyers suing a drug company for something and trying to tell you if you ever took that drug you ought to jump on the bandwagon knowing full well that Pennecillin killed more people than even took the new drug they're suing over.

Posted by Tarascon on 06-21-2010 04:34 AM:

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/inerts.pdf

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/...ides18aug06.htm

Posted by Tarascon on 06-21-2010 04:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
None of us are pharmasists I recon. If you want to put Nitrogen in your garden Urea and Amonia are two N sources that are less than 50% N.. Why don't they make a 100% product? If they did you couldnt handle it. Alot of products have inert ingredients in them to make it easier to handle and mix. Most of the time they are either water, alchohol or an oil.

Imidacloprid is LABELLED to be used on trees and shrubs and Roses and Flowers. The product was very likely not developed to be used on those plants, it was developed to kill certain insects. It finally got LABELLED, after EPA scrutiny, to be used on non-edible plants. Imidacloprid is used on cereal and grain crops, vegetables, coffee, Brazil nuts etc. in other countries. Which we probably eat.

If the target is an insect, to some extent to which it is applied to plant Vs animal is questionable since an insect is neither. For that matter, which specific animal? If you wash out a cat kennel with pine oil you can have a dead cat while it won't hurt a dog at all. Alot of it depends on the experiece of others

If you use a product for which it was not labelled and your dog dies, good luck with your lawsuit, even if you press charges you will likely be the one in jail. Every day you see commercials by Shyster lawyers suing a drug company for something and trying to tell you if you ever took that drug you ought to jump on the bandwagon knowing full well that Pennecillin killed more people than even took the new drug they're suing over.

You make some very good points for eating organic, or at least growing your own food and knowing what has been put on it. I'm a bit confused about your plant vs animal argument, though. I've got no problem with using Advantage on one of my dogs, just don't think it's a good idea to treat him like a shrub.

You are absolutely right that using a chemical off label would make it impossible to go after the manufacturer.

Posted by l.lyle on 06-21-2010 05:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
I agree with you Joey about using products not designed for dogs. It can be very dangerous and one should not scrimp money for health , BUT there is not any '' butt pulling'' here.

If we are talking about the product with just imidacloprid , then they are duplicating the dosage used in K9 Advantage dor dogs...
The active ingredient in Bayer Tree & Shrub is 1.47% imidacloprid - the same ingredient which they market in Advantage flea control for dogs in a 9.1% solution.

Using the correct dosage about 15 CC's will work... like i said above , it didn't work very well for me on ticks, but it will kill fleas.

Tarascon, What they are saying is the makers of Advantage spent the time and money to have Imidacloprid (chemical name) LABELLED for flea control on dogs. Evidently Bayer did not. That is why one is ten times more expensive than the other. It might make legal sense but it doesn't make chemical sense. If NaCl ( table salt) makes cowpeas taste better, some people will probably try it sweetcorn. Good thing Morton did not have to get it labelled. Table salt is a poison. Too much will kill you everytime.

Speaking of Organic growing. I use horse dookie which is two%N because I have source right across the fence. When it runs out I use 30% Amoniun nitrate. One bag does more than a truckload of the dookie. I don't have any problem eating the chemical or the dookie. Some zealots swear by the dookie though.

Posted by Tarascon on 06-21-2010 11:29 AM:

Bayer Health Care makes advantage. Bayer Crop Science makes Bayer Tree and Shrub. Looks to me like Bayer makes both of them.

I use 10-10-10 on our garden, along with composted horse manure. I also put Sevin on the eggplants to get rid of the flea beetles. But I will pick the vegetables that are about ready to go before I put on the Sevin. Then wait a week before picking again. Just not sure I want to eat Brazil nuts or coffee someone in Bolivia put insecticide on, if you see where I'm coming from? Remember what happened with the rice gluten from China?

I understand about dog products costing more than shrub spray. People will pay outrageous amounts for dog products. Part of that cost is packaging, part of it is advertising. And a big part of it is rip-off. I get that. What I have been saying is it might be better to use something besides the stuff labelled for shrubs on dogs. There is stuff in insecticides for plants that you might not want on you or your dogs.

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