UKC Forums - Split tree question?

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Posted by Todd Miller on 10-12-2009 06:31 PM:

Split tree question?

All dogs declared treed, Handler A insists his dog is split, when we get in to tree all are on same tree. Does handler A get 125- or 50- minus which treed in for before he thought he was split. Judge originally wrote in handler A in for 50.

Posted by josh on 10-12-2009 06:34 PM:

The judge shouldent have accepted the split call to begin with unless it obvious....since he did, it must have been obvious and the dog moved so it takes 125-.

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-12-2009 06:36 PM:

I agree he tried to get the handler to wait, or at least suggested it, but he insisted.

Posted by Rivers Edge on 10-12-2009 06:37 PM:

I SAY 125- FOR LEAVIN TREE !!!! SHOULD HAVE KNOWN FOR SURE IT WAS SPLIT BEFORE HE CALLED IT.

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Posted by Trevroto on 10-12-2009 06:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
The judge shouldent have accepted the split call to begin with unless it obvious....since he did, it must have been obvious and the dog moved so it takes 125-.

Yep definatley 125-. Poor handling is what caused that. The only way im declaring my dog split is if it is very obvious.

Posted by Rivers Edge on 10-12-2009 06:41 PM:

I AGREE I HAVE SPLIT TREED MINE A FEW TIMES BUT I KNEW FOR SURE HE WAS SPLIT

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Posted by Slough on 10-12-2009 06:55 PM:

125-

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Posted by blackdawg on 10-12-2009 07:15 PM:

yep, 125- no way around that.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 10-12-2009 07:48 PM:

why did the judge have him down for 50 when he called him treed? did he call him split rite away or did he waite till they got closer to call him split? but i guess if he was throwing a hissy fit he deserves 125-..

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Posted by copperheadcreek on 10-12-2009 08:03 PM:

here is a monkey wrench to throw into this

first he is -125 for split treeing his dog. ( NEVER DO THIS AS A HANDLER LET THE JUDGE DECLAIR YOUR DOG SPLIT)
second if the dog was at the tree before the judge gets there and a coon is seen then you must go to the rules and handle situation in rule # 4g

dogs treeing , but not declaired treed when judge arives will be - on tree points on "off" game or slick tree. points will be determined by next available position in the case of 1 dog or split available tree points in the case of 2 or more dogs.

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Posted by on 10-12-2009 08:14 PM:

Everybody is missing this one.
The rule is crystal clear. That handler cannot split tree his dog. Nobody can split tree a dog except the judge. Rule 11 states that split trees are the judges decision. The judge is the only person that can put a dog on the card as split treed. Since the judge carded the dog for 50 tree and that dog was handled at the tree with the other dogs, that dogs is scored for those 50 tree points.

Sometimes this situation may get confused with rule 4(k) which states that if you tree your dog after the tree is closed, you must be carded for 125 as a split tree and if the dog is actually at that closed tree, that dog is minused 125. But that isn't the situation being described here because the tree was open when all the dog were declared treed.

Posted by on 10-12-2009 08:47 PM:

Here's another twist....

Lets say Judge is handling Dog A.

Lets say Dog A gets treed for 125. After treeing for a minute or so, Dog hushes and the 2 minutes is applied.

During this time, Dogs B gets treed slightly deeper and off to one side. Handler B wants to declare his split because in his opinion, Dog A has hushed and is probably going to move and cover Dog B. Dogs C & D are also treed with Dog B.

All dogs are declared treed and Dog A is handled at the same tree as others.

Under this scenario, can cast majority over rule the judge? Perhaps the Judge doesn't want to believe his dog may have pulled up too quick?

I always felt a split tree had to be obvious to the judge unless of course dogs are declared treed after tree is closed. But I've witnessed the above scenario as well and judge did not want to declare his own dog split in an attempt to avoid minus pts.

Posted by Maniac on 10-12-2009 08:56 PM:

I THOUGHT WHEN A HANDLER MAKES A CALL YOU COULDNT CHANGE IT??? SO IF A DOG LEAVES A TREE AND THE HANDLER SAIDS TO MINUS MY DOG THE JUDGE CANT MINUS . IF YOU YES HE CAN. WHAT THE DIFFERNTS?????

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Posted by Darknite57 on 10-12-2009 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Everybody is missing this one.
The rule is crystal clear. That handler cannot split tree his dog. Nobody can split tree a dog except the judge. Rule 11 states that split trees are the judges decision. The judge is the only person that can put a dog on the card as split treed. Since the judge carded the dog for 50 tree and that dog was handled at the tree with the other dogs, that dogs is scored for those 50 tree points.

Sometimes this situation may get confused with rule 4(k) which states that if you tree your dog after the tree is closed, you must be carded for 125 as a split tree and if the dog is actually at that closed tree, that dog is minused 125. But that isn't the situation being described here because the tree was open when all the dog were declared treed.

I believe this is the correct answer.

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Posted by josh on 10-12-2009 09:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
I THOUGHT WHEN A HANDLER MAKES A CALL YOU COULDNT CHANGE IT???

A judge cant (or shouldent) accept a split tree unless its obvious...It really isnt up to the handler.

Not to many judges are going to argue with a handler that wants to take minus...

Posted by buck brush on 10-12-2009 11:50 PM:

jim

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Everybody is missing this one.
The rule is crystal clear. That handler cannot split tree his dog. Nobody can split tree a dog except the judge. Rule 11 states that split trees are the judges decision. The judge is the only person that can put a dog on the card as split treed. Since the judge carded the dog for 50 tree and that dog was handled at the tree with the other dogs, that dogs is scored for those 50 tree points.

Sometimes this situation may get confused with rule 4(k) which states that if you tree your dog after the tree is closed, you must be carded for 125 as a split tree and if the dog is actually at that closed tree, that dog is minused 125. But that isn't the situation being described here because the tree was open when all the dog were declared treed.

rule 9 comes before 11 it is the handlers duties to in form the judge what his dog is doing if I know my dog is split from the other dogs for sure i will bring it to the judges attion and split tree my dog, that way if the other dogs pull and go to it then they get minused i agree if they are close let the judge call it but if my dog is far enough apart from the others that i can tell it then i'm calling it, a judge has to except you call.

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Posted by Todd Miller on 10-13-2009 12:04 AM:

Re: jim

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
rule 9 comes before 11 it is the handlers duties to in form the judge what his dog is doing if I know my dog is split from the other dogs for sure i will bring it to the judges attion and split tree my dog, that way if the other dogs pull and go to it then they get minused i agree if they are close let the judge call it but if my dog is far enough apart from the others that i can tell it then i'm calling it, a judge has to except you call.

I have read this two rules and I have to say Jim is right.

Skip it does not say tell the judge what the dog is doing, It says inform the judge of its peculiarities before the hunt begins and call the dog when it opens and trees. Any kind of judge will know what all dogs are doing after the first tree anyway.

Posted by Maniac on 10-13-2009 12:05 AM:

Any kind of judge will know what all dogs are doing after the first tree anyway.

THIS ISNT ALWAYS TRUE.

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-13-2009 12:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
why did the judge have him down for 50 when he called him treed? did he call him split rite away or did he waite till they got closer to call him split? but i guess if he was throwing a hissy fit he deserves 125-..

Dan
Everybody but the dogs handler thought the dogs where all together. Why he wanted to call his dog split is beyond me. Judge wrote him in for 50 when we all treed. No the handle start insisting he was split after we treed and started walking into tree, we were still 200 yards away.

Posted by on 10-13-2009 12:14 AM:

That handler can insist until he is blue in the face but handlers don't write on the score card, judges do. And that judge is ONLY person who can make the decision to put a dog down as split treed. And the rulebook states it must be obvious that the dogs are split.
Rule 9 isn't in any way relevant to this situation.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-13-2009 12:22 AM:

That makes more since. If I could do it I would just split all trees then say they moved to mine. I get + and they get -. I like that as long as I am the only one that can do it. I did read were it has to be obivous to the judge.

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Posted by Todd Miller on 10-13-2009 12:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Any kind of judge will know what all dogs are doing after the first tree anyway.

THIS ISNT ALWAYS TRUE.

LOL , That sure is a true statement.

Posted by Maniac on 10-13-2009 12:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
That handler can insist until he is blue in the face but handlers don't write on the score card, judges do. And that judge is ONLY person who can make the decision to put a dog down as split treed. And the rulebook states it must be obvious that the dogs are split.
Rule 9 isn't in any way relevant to this situation.

A JUDGE CANT TAKE A HANDLER CALL IF HE SAID MINUS MY DOG????

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-13-2009 12:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
LOL , That sure is a true statement.

Yep I even carried a card once in a youth hunt. Didn't have a clue. Had 2 good judges help me out though. I was the only one leagle to carrie. The other guy one was a grand pa and the other was a dad of the kids. Pretty low key, no problems,had a blast with those kids. Had a 8 year old boy and 2- 10 year old girls. Tough kids and sportsmen to boot. I had a bad head ake that night and was still one of the best hunts I have been on. Can't wait to get my grand kids out there.

Posted by BOOBOOBRADY on 10-13-2009 12:48 AM:

Split tree show there self Jim is correct again, How come i can never draw these guys that don't know the rules. LOL

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Come on people drop you're ego and admitt you just got beat, made a bad call, dog made a mistake, what ever.You can't get cheated that much

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