UKC Forums - The truth about cross breeding

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-08-2009 09:52 PM:

The truth about cross breeding

I can see two reason people would be against allowing crossbred dogs in UKC hunts.

1) They don't like the thought of getting beat by them

2) They are aware that there is holes in thier breed and fear a drop in interest in it. This include people worried about puppy sales.

Guys, I do not own, hunt or breed crossbred dogs, but I have seen some good ones. I do not plan on owning one, or breeding one , even if this rules is passed.

i doubt if it is even being considerd.

I just want to see the best dogs available in the hunts, I don't care what they are!

Come on, lets hear legitimate arguments against them.

Not that just don't want to sit next to them on the bus.

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-08-2009 10:29 PM:

Just to clarify, I am talking about crossbred HOUNDS.

I know that UKC does not allow curs to hunt with hounds. I don't see that changing

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Posted by Justin Smith on 09-08-2009 10:44 PM:

I think that viewpoint is as biased and untrue as the guys that think their curs or crosses would turn the hounds on their ears and dominate.

Crossed or pure isn't the secret to having great dogs ....

The reason is you couldn't keep the pit/hounds , birdog/hounds , cowdog/hounds and such out of the mix ... it would take so many fail-safes that the crossbred paperwork and hunt rules would cost you more than the dog's would ever be worth ....

Posted by on 09-08-2009 10:50 PM:

Both of your reasons are completely bogus Mick. Most of us have hunted against them for years in PKC. And I doubt you could honestly find one single person who is worried about any crossbreed ever causeing any loss of interest in purebreds or pup sales.
Crossbreds have been allowed in UKC for years, specificly the crosses within the 6 breeds that you are talking about. If you are so bound to register a crossbred, do it. The process is avaible in most, if not all of the 6 breeds. What's the problem> Can't pass the hunt test?

Posted by jackbob42 on 09-08-2009 11:18 PM:

Re: The truth about cross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
I can see two reason people would be against allowing crossbred dogs in UKC hunts.

1) They don't like the thought of getting beat by them

2) They are aware that there is holes in thier breed and fear a drop in interest in it. This include people worried about puppy sales.

1) I don't comp hunt , so I'm not afraid of them.

2) I don't raise no puppies to sell. But , you're right , there are holes in every breed. That comes from breeding junk to junk.

I know there are some good crossbreds out there , but there are alot more junk ones.
You know as well as I do that there are already guys breeding junk (walkers for example) females to the hottest stud dogs out there just to make a few bucks on pups.
You also know as well that , if allowed , there will be alot of folks doing the same thing with junk females from other breeds.
Don't you think there is already enough junk being bred?

Now , I ask you , why would you want to allow it? If it's not for money on pups , what is it?
If it's to compete , go to PKC or hold your own hunts with UKC rules.
We held a hunt with UKC rules for charity a few years back. Raised a couple hundred bucks ( that could have went to the winner). Wasn't that hard to do.

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Posted by Autumn Clements on 09-08-2009 11:59 PM:

I got nothing against crossbreds, I owned one here the other year and wouldn't think twice about owning another one.

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 12:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Both of your reasons are completely bogus Mick. Most of us have hunted against them for years in PKC. And I doubt you could honestly find one single person who is worried about any crossbreed ever causeing any loss of interest in purebreds or pup sales.
Crossbreds have been allowed in UKC for years, specificly the crosses within the 6 breeds that you are talking about. If you are so bound to register a crossbred, do it. The process is avaible in most, if not all of the 6 breeds. What's the problem> Can't pass the hunt test?

Because a half b&t and half bluetick is niether dog, they are a crossbreed.

Haven't we been over this?

Readcarefully, Jim. I DO NOT OWN ONE, I DO NOT PLAN TO OWN ONE.

If someone has a top dog, I want to see it.

Why are you so against it?

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 12:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Justin Smith
I think that viewpoint is as biased and untrue as the guys that think their curs or crosses would turn the hounds on their ears and dominate.

Crossed or pure isn't the secret to having great dogs ....

The reason is you couldn't keep the pit/hounds , birdog/hounds , cowdog/hounds and such out of the mix ... it would take so many fail-safes that the crossbred paperwork and hunt rules would cost you more than the dog's would ever be worth ....

How does UKC keep those out of the "pure bred" dogs, Justin?

There is your answer.

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 12:45 AM:

Re: Re: The truth about cross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
1) I don't comp hunt , so I'm not afraid of them.

2) I don't raise no puppies to sell. But , you're right , there are holes in every breed. That comes from breeding junk to junk.

I know there are some good crossbreds out there , but there are alot more junk ones.
You know as well as I do that there are already guys breeding junk (walkers for example) females to the hottest stud dogs out there just to make a few bucks on pups.
You also know as well that , if allowed , there will be alot of folks doing the same thing with junk females from other breeds.
Don't you think there is already enough junk being bred?

Now , I ask you , why would you want to allow it? If it's not for money on pups , what is it?
If it's to compete , go to PKC or hold your own hunts with UKC rules.
We held a hunt with UKC rules for charity a few years back. Raised a couple hundred bucks ( that could have went to the winner). Wasn't that hard to do.

I'll take these one at a time.

1)There are a lot more junk dogs then good ones.

You can't say that about pure bred dogs?

2) people would breed junk dogs

You admit yourself that goes on in pure bred dogs.

3)Why would I want to allow it?

because I want to compete against the best dogs out there. Because alot of folks live were there are UKC clubs, but not PKC clubs. Because most people don't want to have to start a club or throw a benefit hunt, just to be able to compete in anight hunt.

Step back and ask yourself honestly why this botheres you so much?

Shouldn't a good dog be recognised, no matter the breed?

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 12:55 AM:

Guys I am not talking about single registerd dogs. I am talking about a planned breeding between two UKC registerd dogs of different breeds.

The pups could be litter registerd as crossbreeds and be able to compete just like any other hound.

I believe DNA should be required on all crosses, and especially on these.

Jeesh!

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Posted by huntsmenbob on 09-09-2009 01:44 AM:

Never compition hunted coon hounds. This is what you are talking about coon hounds right? I wouldn't see a problem with it just call it mixed or something. Us squirrel dog hunters don't mind them any. Some treeing curs are great dogs.

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Posted by bandithunter on 09-09-2009 01:58 AM:

Well Mick, the best reason I can think of is hybrid vigor. You'll get a couple good ones in the first generation and after that it's a crap shoot. Now, if you wanted to try this and keep to yourself with succeeding generations and cull ruthlessly eventually you will get some dogs that are workable. Or, you could pick a breed already in existance, find the very best within that breed and go from there and save yourself a lot of time and money. There are strains within the breeds where the traits are pretty well set and I really don't see any reason to start over which is basically what you're doing by crossbreeding.

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 02:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bandithunter
Well Mick, the best reason I can think of is hybrid vigor. You'll get a couple good ones in the first generation and after that it's a crap shoot. Now, if you wanted to try this and keep to yourself with succeeding generations and cull ruthlessly eventually you will get some dogs that are workable. Or, you could pick a breed already in existance, find the very best within that breed and go from there and save yourself a lot of time and money. There are strains within the breeds where the traits are pretty well set and I really don't see any reason to start over which is basically what you're doing by crossbreeding.

I am well aware it is not the right way to breed dogs.

I have owned hounds for 35 years and have no desire to own or breed a crossbreed.

But, I would own one and hunt it, if it was a good one.

What I can't understand is people's prejudice against them.

I like hunting against good dogs.

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Posted by bandithunter on 09-09-2009 02:21 AM:

I don't mind hunting with or against them, but I feel there's enough turd eaters in existance already so why make more?

Posted by donaldpeyton on 09-09-2009 02:32 AM:

Realisticly the place all these dogs come from we hunt is from being crossbred.You know years and years we seem to always find reasons to down another mans wishes.I think ukc should reconize cross breeds thats truly our foundation of what we enjoy the sport is the reason we love what we do so if hes blue or black and blue they feedum the pay the entrys let them hunt.

Posted by TOP on 09-09-2009 02:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Both of your reasons are completely bogus Mick. Most of us have hunted against them for years in PKC. And I doubt you could honestly find one single person who is worried about any crossbreed ever causeing any loss of interest in purebreds or pup sales.
Crossbreds have been allowed in UKC for years, specificly the crosses within the 6 breeds that you are talking about. If you are so bound to register a crossbred, do it. The process is avaible in most, if not all of the 6 breeds. What's the problem> Can't pass the hunt test?

I thought there were 7 breeds of coon hounds now....they call the plott curs and leopard curs hounds now, don't they??

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Posted by walkerdog2009 on 09-09-2009 03:08 AM:

jim

your rite on the money in my book

Posted by bumer26 on 09-09-2009 03:24 AM:

Nick,
Just curious I know you don't hunt crossbreeds. So what breed of dogs do you hunt in the hunts? In all the hunts you been to in the last year what would you say are the best breed. Don't know this for a fact as I don't know your area or even you but I bet you have not been to hunt for years if ever. The only reason for saying this is looking at your old posts under "kr cooner" you were always whining about something. My guess is trying to get the rules changed to the type of dog that someone probably gave you.

Posted by jackbob42 on 09-09-2009 03:28 AM:

" 1)There are a lot more junk dogs then good ones.

You can't say that about pure bred dogs? "

1) Can't you read? Didn't I already say that when I said " walkers for example " in my post?

" 2) people would breed junk dogs

You admit yourself that goes on in pure bred dogs. "

2) Yup , and I also said allowing crossbreds would increase the amount of junk being bred. So what's your point?

3) " because I want to compete against the best dogs out there. Because alot of folks live were there are UKC clubs, but not PKC clubs. Because most people don't want to have to start a club or throw a benefit hunt, just to be able to compete in anight hunt.

3) So , you want to compete , but not do the work to put on a hunt. There's alot of folks like that.

4) Step back and ask yourself honestly why this botheres you so much?

4) Already have and stated my reasons.

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Posted by trappin_girl on 09-09-2009 03:43 AM:

i personally dont mind being beat by any type of dog as long as its honestly beat me... i could be beat by a freakin poodle and wouldnt care as long is it was fair.

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Posted by honalieh on 09-09-2009 04:50 AM:

Crossbreds!!!

I've been hunting crossbreds for 30+ years. They're called English Hounds!!!

Hardtime Speck = Walker Dog.

Beshears Blue Boy II (Junior) = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog) X a Walker female.

Boyds Little Joe = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog).

There's the so-called big 3 of the English breed.

Daron's Blue Reb (Lumis) = 3/4 Walker (double Johnsons Banjo).

Merks Singing Tapp = 1/2 Walker (Finley River).

Without this crossbred blood, the English breed would be pretty pathetic!!!

If the very best foundation stock of the English breed were crossbred, grade, or in Specks case, transferred from another breed, why would we want to eliminate the method that improved the breed the most!!!

How many English breeders would breed to Speck, Little Joe, or Junior if you could today? None purebred.

No breed is exempt from this. If you don't allow single-registration, paper switching/false papers will be more prominent!!! And, you will never know about it!!!

If you don't have first-hand knowledge of a dog and its pedigree, you basically have NO KNOWLEDGE of the dog and its pedigree.

Posted by elvis on 09-09-2009 10:11 AM:

Re: Crossbreds!!!

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
I've been hunting crossbreds for 30+ years. They're called English Hounds!!!

Hardtime Speck = Walker Dog.

Beshears Blue Boy II (Junior) = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog) X a Walker female.

Boyds Little Joe = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog).

There's the so-called big 3 of the English breed.

Daron's Blue Reb (Lumis) = 3/4 Walker (double Johnsons Banjo).

Merks Singing Tapp = 1/2 Walker (Finley River).

Without this crossbred blood, the English breed would be pretty pathetic!!!

If the very best foundation stock of the English breed were crossbred, grade, or in Specks case, transferred from another breed, why would we want to eliminate the method that improved the breed the most!!!

How many English breeders would breed to Speck, Little Joe, or Junior if you could today? None purebred.

No breed is exempt from this. If you don't allow single-registration, paper switching/false papers will be more prominent!!! And, you will never know about it!!!

If you don't have first-hand knowledge of a dog and its pedigree, you basically have NO KNOWLEDGE of the dog and its pedigree.

The English breeders have been the only ones that are open about this. The other breeds also have plenty of crossbreeds in their background and a lot of them were not full hound crosses either.
It makes me chuckle to see so many against a crossbreed registry but have no problem with single registering one of them into their breed as long as it meets their color standards.ROFL.

Posted by mjflores on 09-09-2009 11:54 AM:

Again, if you're gonna go the cross breed route, thats fine but except everything that comes with it. This includes no papers, and not hunting in a PURE BRED registry like the UKC. If you people dont like it, there's nothing stopping you from forming your own registry called UCA (United Crossbreed Association).

The UKC is a purebred registry period...what do people not understand about that??

I'll again post the UKC's mission statement: Our mission is to be the world's best registry of purebred dogs, to offer our customers the most efficient and creative services possible, to use our data to help our customers breed the best dogs in the world and to create a wide spectrum of performance and conformation events in which those dogs can prove their instincts and heritage.

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Posted by john nannemann on 09-09-2009 01:28 PM:

Re: Crossbreds!!!

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
I've been hunting crossbreds for 30+ years. They're called English Hounds!!!

Hardtime Speck = Walker Dog.

Beshears Blue Boy II (Junior) = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog) X a Walker female.

Boyds Little Joe = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog).

There's the so-called big 3 of the English breed.

Daron's Blue Reb (Lumis) = 3/4 Walker (double Johnsons Banjo).

Merks Singing Tapp = 1/2 Walker (Finley River).

Without this crossbred blood, the English breed would be pretty pathetic!!!

If the very best foundation stock of the English breed were crossbred, grade, or in Specks case, transferred from another breed, why would we want to eliminate the method that improved the breed the most!!!

How many English breeders would breed to Speck, Little Joe, or Junior if you could today? None purebred.

No breed is exempt from this. If you don't allow single-registration, paper switching/false papers will be more prominent!!! And, you will never know about it!!!

If you don't have first-hand knowledge of a dog and its pedigree, you basically have NO KNOWLEDGE of the dog and its pedigree.

i to have hunted english for about 25 yrs., IF the "bluetick" color liking folks and the "walker" color liking folks hadn't wanted to separate out of the english back in the forties we all could still easily be getting an outcross and STILL predomantly have your "colors". instead, us english folks will still consider all the walkers and blueticks part of the english bloodline and use them as we will, single register them, and go happily on our way. colors be dammed.

Posted by John D on 09-09-2009 03:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
I like hunting against good dogs.

Why don't you believe in high standards for breeding dogs, then? Would you rather have your next dog from an accidental cross or some mad scientist experiment?

You seem to think that somehow crossbreds are better coondogs. I'd disagree with that. I'm just guessing at numbers but I'd say that maybe 20% of planned, purebred crosses make something that someone thinks is worth owning. I'd also say that of the crossbred crosses, maybe 1% makes anything. An isolated case that turns out a good dog here or there does not change that.

By crossbred, I'm talking true crossbred and not excluding something just because its ears are too short, hair too long, or it chops on track. We constantly hear from guys that say they will hunt anything if it will perform. So, lets give it to them. Don't exclude any dogs because they don't belong to some group. Isn't that what you've been saying? You want crossbreds, you're going to get crossbreds. I just hope you know what you're wishing for.

Crossbred breeding, is for the most part an accident and most anything good that comes out of it is luck. When was the last time you won the lottery? Is that how you breed dogs? Not me. Luck is what most crossbred "breeders" are counting on. Sure, there are a few that are experimenting and nothing wrong with that. They've always been able to do that. The problem is most of them don't have a clue what they are doing and want some instant $$$ or recognition for it. They don't want to work and pay their dues. They will wash out of breeding coondogs because of their impatience and bad ideas but their mistakes and accidents may hang around for years.

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