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Breeding discussion

I have always been interested in crossbred dogs. In recent years, the Cur x Walker crosses have been more common. In the old days, it seemed local fur hunters all had a recipe they prefered whether it was Walker x Bluetick, or Redbone x B&T or whatever. I knew some that almost intentionally crossed they're hounds with stock dogs and got dogs that suited them well.

I've read on this site about "Genetic Mud" and words like "Hybrid vigor".

I'm sure there is some truth to hybrid vigor but what I'd like to know is if you took offspring of crossbred dogs and tightly linebred them onto themselves wouldn't that be lock in the traits even more so than the breeding practices most are using in they're purebred hounds today?

For example, Wouldn't breeding a Cur x Walker crossbreds using the same stock dogs, repeatedly showing the same 2-4 hounds in a 3 generation pedigree be more consistent than breeding 2 purebred Walkers that share no known ancestors for 5-6 generations?

I don't have room in the yard to experiment and make these types of crosses and keep the majority of each litter to breed back and forth, but I've always been fascinated with the idea.

The stock of Walkers I have suit me better than any other hound I've come across so I'm not necessarily looking to abandon that breeding program. A friend of mine has made 2 crosses using Walker females from the same stock breeding them to his Mtn View Cur male. He is liking what he is getting and some local furhunters are loving them!

Any input?

Brogy,

There was a guy who did such an experiment with cur dogs. He started a new breed called Camus Curs. I will be darn if I can remember the breeder, but I think he wrote for Full Cry.

Actually, what you are describing above is how many breeds were started.


PS I think it was McDuffie, maybe.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

i got the room you flip the feed bill and we can just see what happens

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boy's i tell ya how it is. i'am not here to bs you. i'am here to hunt dogs and get you the most for your money.my door is open for anyone to come hunt, spend the night or the weekend i hunt hard and it shows in my dogs 317-494-1098 danny suttles

Every breed was made from a cross that clicked ... and then was bred around and had something special enough to build on .

You can't really plan it or do it alone though , stuff like that happens on it's own schedule and it takes a cross that so many people in many different places like enough that the blood can be maintained .

...and the pedigree example you described is what true linebreeding is ... you have one common ancestor , but the rest are as distantly related as possible ... this is what gives you some control and predictability vs. doubling up on several of the same dogs and pretending the one you like the best is the one that is influencing your blood more than the others that are in the pedigree just as much.

Brogy sounds alot like what the Kovac's have done breeding their Mt. Curs to Walkers.I believe they have had alot of luck with it.One of my best dogs ever was a Walker x Bluetick cross would love to have him back for these PKC hunts!!!

I have hunted with great crossbred hounds before and as was said alot of your breeds started that way.

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Dale Griffiths and proud to say it.
littleosageenglish@Gmail.com

When I was growing up my dad had Walkers and Blueticks. We used to breed Walker-Bluetick all the time because we just considered them coondawgs. Not a pacific breed. We had some of the best all around dogs for hunting you could find. Very early starters, tree minded. Used to sell the pups for 125.00 25yrs ago to fur hunters. Sold every last one. I think its the way to go if you just enjoy hunting coon and not the breed. Some of the best hounds I ever owned where crossed. Just hard nosed coondogs that could get it done in any type of weather. Sure miss those days of hunting.

If nothing else these Crossbreeds sure make good Warmers on this 4^ morning !! At least the Wife thinks so..

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

quote:

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Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
If nothing else these Crossbreeds sure make good Warmers on this 4^ morning !! At least the Wife thinks so..

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Thats funny mnman she fits right in thier

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Taz

Yep her night wear gets kinda wild at times !! LOL

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

Marc,

It's not as much about "genetic mud" or hybrid vigor....

Man, what you are proposing is a multi-year, multi-dog, multi-handler odyssey. To me, it's as much about identifying traits....not the traits that your dogs don't have, but the traits that are absent from the BREED of dogs.

I can see how it would be easy to change (improve by some folks standards) the cur strain that you started with. You like "hounds", and it would certainly be easy to make a cur line more hound like. Making them look, sound, and act more like a hound.

It would also be easy to make a hound more "cur like". What I'm reasonably certain would be tough is to take the "best" of the hounds and implant them in the curs, and the best of the curs and implant them in the hounds.

Just remember, that with each breeding, you get both the good and the bad. Take a walker with an "outstanding nose", and breed it to a cur with an "average" nose....and you don't get a litter with outstanding noses!

The real trick would be to breed in what you want, without breeding out what you don't want to loose.

I'm curious though...what exactly is it that you think you can find in curs, that can't be found in walkers? And vice versa?

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Marc

That's exactly what I'm doing, but with B&T and Walkers. I've already got the 1/2 cross that look like B&Ts and will probably breed the best male (no white) to the best female (littermate sister) that has some white on a few toes. If I get more pups that meet the B&T standard from that cross, I'll probably breed the best female back to another Walker that is 3/4 (FatherXDaughter cross) the original Sire (Mighty Mouse). It will be interesting no doubt!

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Randy Sexton
1219 East Ritter Street
Republic, MO 65738

Randy what is the goal of your breeding just curious.I know you must have some goal your aiming at!

Many goals

If I were to sum it up, I would like to see higher percentages of black and tan colored hounds turning out to be some kind of coondog. Intelligence, desire, accuracy, tracking, consistency, good mouth, not mean, calm in the kennel, stay put. If I can get more pups to turn out, I have more to pick from for breeding where I can then focus on individual traits I want to improve. I feel the walker line I've chosen can bring these traits if I can linebreed/inbreed them enough for the traits to pass through to their pups.

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Randy Sexton
1219 East Ritter Street
Republic, MO 65738

After 7 years (156) pups, of making Crosses the very last thing on our list has been breeding for PhenoType, Sure you get sayed in your selections when you get get that perfict Pheno type you were looking for in the cross.

We have also learned that you do get a high % of hybrid vigor thru out the litter, but we have also learned that 1-2 pups out of 10 have the full package you are looking for in the cross..
That one pup is fully Homogenized the Genetics and trates you were looking for..

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

But Randy once you introduced Treeing Walker in there you really no longer dealing with a B&T your dealing with a crossbred!How do you plan to eventually bring them into a registery.Are you planning on introducing them back into the B&T breed?

I think thats what he is getting at by breeding the ones with no white so they can be registered as B&T's??? I may be wrong but thats the way i was understanding it.

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Seth Olson

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Marc,
I'm curious though...what exactly is it that you think you can find in curs, that can't be found in walkers? And vice versa?

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Just like RH said

As RH. said, I want to keep the B&T color and when I have something I will single register them as B&T.

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Randy Sexton
1219 East Ritter Street
Republic, MO 65738

I don't know about all that Randy,I wish all the luck and Tam Young done proved that it will work.But what your basically saying is you want a Walker with a B&T paint job!!But one thing about it your honest and this has occured for years but my Dad always said the Old timers called it a barn breeding.Cause them crosses always happened out of sight and were unspoken.What always gave me the insight was it was a Treeing Walker they all kept in the barn.I figured it was just as easy to hunt the hidden part of the recipe!!

Never ceases to amaze me how they all bash the Walker breed but then they want to breed to one and get it into their "breed". Kinda makes ya go HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

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Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

Hobo-
I highly doubt the fellas always running down the walkers are the same fellas wanting to take a dip in the pool.
One group is color blind, one is not.
I've been primarily a Walker guy since I was 13 years old. I'll be the first to tell you, a good share of the walkers I've hunted with have been complete junk. With that, I'd tell you some the better off breeds I've seen wouldn't even be average if they were walkers.
When you're used to hunting a Walker dog you tend to carry a different measuring stick. Sometimes thats good, sometimes its not so good.

I'll agree with ya on alot of junky walkers I wouldn't wanna own.

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Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

best dog

i have EVER SEAN UNSNAPED to this day was from a reg walker bitch and the sire was a regestered black and tan.the dog was made like a walker and look just like a regester black and tan.was the best coon dog i have sean in my hole life.i always told that she had justr enuff walker to make her a coon dog.I HAVE ONLEY HUNTED WALKERS CENCE SHE DIED maney years ago and she is what i look 4 probley till the day i die.i have tried every breed they are to hunt but the walker is the beast i think BUT THEY ARE LINES OF WALKERS that cant run a track to much tree and they are some that can run a track but wount tree.i wish i could find a track driver that did not tree then breed it to some of the famouse blood then they probley would tree up every bush.to maney people these days breed just for tree dogs but if they cant run a track they will not eat my feed.that half breed was also the dog that thought me that 98 coon out of 100 would clim a tree if a dog could run mister coon

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tim