UKC Forums - Brood female

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-- Brood female (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=237637)

Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-07-2008 04:55 PM:

Brood female

O.K. O.K. I am climbing down off my political soapbox.

But I just have to climb up on another. I am in the process of trying to find a female that goes back to my breeding. Just in case, I can't find anything for sale, I have to entertain the thought of going outside and getting an unrelated female. That brings me to reading more ads than I normally do.

My goodness! I just can't believe the number of brood females there are for sale.

O.K. here comes the soap box ...

The term brood female should mean hard hunting and can tree a coon alone in style.

Brood and hasn't been hunted much should never be used in the same sentence.

This type of breeding practice is exactly how we end up with so many mediocre dogs.

I know how hard it is to find quality females to breed to our favorite males, but come on we are not doing our males justice by breeding them to subpar females just for the sake of making a cross. I have one of my all time favorite males and I have only been able to breed him to one quality female. He will probably die and my line will start to slip away from me even more than it already is, but I will be darn if I will use a subpar female.

Sorry, I really don't feel better either ... just frustrated I guess.

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Aim small miss small

Posted by perry co cooner on 11-07-2008 05:01 PM:

I agree I wouldn't breed my prize female to a male that isn't a top hound so I wouldn't breed my prize stud to a worthless female.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 11-07-2008 05:16 PM:

Larry,

If you need a female....

Let me know...I'll prove to you they are capable of getting the job done alone....and reproducing the ability of getting the job done alone....

Now, for your "soap box"....

I could not possibly agree more. What the ads should say is....

For sale...Plug female that I spent way too much money on to cull.

She comes in heat twice a year..and can raise pups. If you are looking for a cheap way to raise pups....here she is. She may not have ever been hunted, or she might have so many bad habits that I can't stand her. Paces the kennel constantly, and my neighbors have decided that she needs to go, due to her constant barking. Her pups may or may not have all of these bad habits, or you may get lucky.

If you into gambling, I can deliver her to XXXXXXX hunt.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Ray&Luie on 11-07-2008 05:24 PM:

Brood Female

I was in Albany one year and there was a man there, and he said had two Hundred Females Breed to lipper, i didnt even know lipper had breed that many females at that time lol
and he said they where all night champions, im sure some of you have met the same man

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Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 11-07-2008 05:51 PM:

But "LOOK AT HER PAPERS" She could Only Produce the Finest Of Pups !!! lol

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 11-07-2008 07:49 PM:

Okay Larry, just for the sake of discussion......

How about a "young" female, that is not what you would call "finished", but has demonstrated all the traits that you want.....except X? She has the mouth, breeding, trailing, hunt....etcetera

Say a female that runs, trees, is accurate....but maybe is loose around the tree..and needs "tightened up"...you know that experience is a big factor, and sometimes training (disclaimer: I know that tree style is a big factor for a lot of people....but I'm not sure that it's inherited, and can prove my theory in my own breeding program, so don't get hung up on this example) Would you breed her?

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Philip on 11-07-2008 07:54 PM:

yes, but try to sell a nice female, with a good pedigree, and titles, and see what people try to offer for her.

Posted by Ray&Luie on 11-07-2008 07:59 PM:

Brood Female

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Okay Larry, just for the sake of discussion......

How about a "young" female, that is not what you would call "finished", but has demonstrated all the traits that you want.....except X? She has the mouth, breeding, trailing, hunt....etcetera

Say a female that runs, trees, is accurate....but maybe is loose around the tree..and needs "tightened up"...you know that experience is a big factor, and sometimes training (disclaimer: I know that tree style is a big factor for a lot of people....but I'm not sure that it's inherited, and can prove my theory in my own breeding program, so don't get hung up on this example) Would you breed her?

It would depend on the possitives Verses the Negatives.
is she straight, is she ill , does she have a good mouth, can she stay on a hard running coon, "I know yawl dont have those up there"

Does she know good dog from bad dog

i,e brains

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Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

Posted by Oak Ridge on 11-07-2008 08:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Philip
yes, but try to sell a nice female, with a good pedigree, and titles, and see what people try to offer for her.

Don't you think that is at least in part because of the "brood female" way of thinking? I mean, if I can buy a "brood female" that is a plug out of the same litter as your "nice female"...at 1/4 the price or less....doesn't that bring down the value of the nice female?

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by HOBO on 11-07-2008 08:19 PM:

Just because they set the woods on fire doesn't mean they are going to reproduce.......

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-07-2008 08:24 PM:

Joe,

There are many factors to consider. One is she from an out cross? Is she from a line bred cross? Does she fit the norm for what you expect for her level of development? What are her littermates doing? Do they fit the norm for what you expect for their level of development?

And these are just the first bunch that rolls off the top of my head.

I am afraid my last experiment has skewed me to be even more picky.

I am horrible for not making many crosses. If a person wants to increase the quality of their breeding stock they have to make crosses. I typically only make enough to keep me in dogs ... well until the last couple of years. I know that research says you should breed those younger individuals if you believe in your breeding program, but for most cases I find it hard to breed a female before 2 years old.

So to answer your question, all the right answers would have to be answered for me to say yes breed her.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-07-2008 08:26 PM:

Yes, Hobo, but ya don't know if they will reproduce without breeding them. Ya, yes the ole catch .22.

If the female was linebred and a person was considering breeding her, I would suspect that the female fits the family type.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by HOBO on 11-07-2008 08:34 PM:

As long as they come from a litter of good dogs they should reproduce.........

Posted by josh on 11-07-2008 09:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Just because they set the woods on fire doesn't mean they are going to reproduce.......

In Theory i'll agree with Larry and Joe.

Im not sure your odds of getting that "extra special dog" are any greater from 2 proven world beaters.

I am no breeder, I dont want to be, But I wouldent reject the notion of a pup off a "brood female" if it came from the right breeder.

Posted by truly on 11-07-2008 09:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Larry,

If you need a female....

Let me know...I'll prove to you they are capable of getting the job done alone....and reproducing the ability of getting the job done alone....

Now, for your "soap box"....

I could not possibly agree more. What the ads should say is....

For sale...Plug female that I spent way too much money on to cull.

She comes in heat twice a year..and can raise pups. If you are looking for a cheap way to raise pups....here she is. She may not have ever been hunted, or she might have so many bad habits that I can't stand her. Paces the kennel constantly, and my neighbors have decided that she needs to go, due to her constant barking. Her pups may or may not have all of these bad habits, or you may get lucky.

If you into gambling, I can deliver her to XXXXXXX hunt.

add to that, if you would like to raise 4 pups to get one good one, rather than two, and if you are the kind of guy who likes to keep those extra dogs that dont turn out trapped in a kennel for the rest of their life "pacing the kennels and barking" then this is the female for you!

the theory of the all grand pedigree is of course that after a certain number of consecutive generations being coondogs that all future generations will also be coondogs. while i dont think all grand is the answer, i do believe that we should attempt to put together pedigrees with all coondogs. no dog in the pedigree that you wouldnt be happy to take hunting at least 100 nights.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-07-2008 09:35 PM:

"no dog in the pedigree that you wouldnt be happy to take hunting at least 100 nights."

I like that Truly!

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by ItsOlMander on 11-07-2008 09:52 PM:

i agree- just because a dog will hunt and consistantly tree coon in all terrains and in any or no company does not mean it will be a top notch reproducer.... BUT why not breed the best to try to get the best? theres no garuntee what youre gonna get out of any cross- even two world champion coondogs... theres always going to be culls but why would i expect to get world class coondogs breeding two dogs that arent worth the food they eat and have never made it out of the driveway except to chase cars?... i look at other breeds that were formerly working or hunting breeds and now are only house pets. how was that hunting/working instinct bred out of them? well id say it was from breeding generations and generations of those dogs that were just pets and never used their instinctsand after awhile- theyre mierly pets... would i be supprised, bewildered, frustrated and mad if i tried to take one of those pets out to the woods and hunt em and they never turned out let alone show any interest in the animal im trying to hunt?... no, id expect it.

coondogs+coondogs=coondogs
(and HOPEFULLY a smaller percentage of culls)

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Posted by truly on 11-07-2008 10:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
"no dog in the pedigree that you wouldnt be happy to take hunting at least 100 nights."

I like that Truly!

some nights when the wind is hard, conditions have been tough, and you get home and think- what should i do? go hunting or sit by the tv with a cold beer? a good dog doesnt just tree a bunch of coon- it motivates you to get changed, grab your light off the charger, and jump in the truck! and a really good dog convinces you to make JUST ONE MORE DROP!
good luck in your search for the right female- what specifically were you looking for as far as bloodlines?

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if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by Keith Hodge on 11-07-2008 10:40 PM:

I will throw another question into the mix. All grand or does not matter?

I believe that a long line of proven dogs produces a whole lot better chance of getting good dogs. A line of unproven dog produces well who knows what.You may get a good one you may not. I am not saying that all all-grand crosses will produce all good pups but I believe that your chances are alot better that a high percentage of the litter will make coondogs.

Posted by HOBO on 11-07-2008 10:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Keith Hodge
I will throw another question into the mix. All grand or does not matter?

Unless you know the dog or the man behind the dogs the titles mean nothing...............

Posted by elvis on 11-07-2008 11:33 PM:

Larry
start hunting females. you can breed her to anything.
its a little tougher convinceing the owner of a top female that he needs to breed to your male. lol

if you get a top reproduceing female, she will throw good pups regardless what you breed her to. I dont think that is true of males.

yes i know, i have no facts to back up that last claim. but i believe it.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-08-2008 01:24 AM:

Elvis,

That is what I have normally done over the years. I actually had my male sold and the fella asked me to keep him until spring. When I tried to get a hold of him he wouldn't return my calls. The thing is by then he was turning the crank so I kept him.

Dee was supposed to be my female to carry the line on. I made the mistake of making an experimental cross before I breed Dee. I guess I waited too long, but I agree 100% it is easier finding a good male than it is finding a good female.

It will be the path I follow in the future.

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Aim small miss small

Posted by MikeO on 11-08-2008 01:32 AM:

i know I'm gonna get crucified for saying this but......I've never hunted with a female that i liked.

I've seen some coon treeing money winners but i just didn't like the way they hunted or it seemed like they all had some goofy little quirk. maybe i just ain't been around long enough.

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Posted by elvis on 11-08-2008 01:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MikeO
i know I'm gonna get crucified for saying this but......I've never hunted with a female that i liked.

I've seen some coon treeing money winners but i just didn't like the way they hunted or it seemed like they all had some goofy little quirk. maybe i just ain't been around long enough.

if i made a list of my favorite dogs that ive hunted with over the past 40 years, the list would probably be female dominated.
i prefer hunting females, but their heat cycle can sure throw a wrench in things.
i always thought a female was a bit easier for me to bond with and would try a bit harder to please me.

Posted by on 11-08-2008 01:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Unless you know the dog or the man behind the dogs the titles mean nothing...............

Well said. I'd rather get a pup out of a PR female that I know can get that job done owned by someone who I personally know packs a coondog than out of an ALL Grand Dual Gr female for somewheres far from home owned by someone who spits out ALL Grand litters monthly that I do not know.

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