UKC Forums - Gray Area on dogs fighting

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-- Gray Area on dogs fighting (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=114963)

Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 10-09-2006 03:21 PM:

Gray Area on dogs fighting

After returning from semis in portland, in zone 2, i realize i had lot more to learn about the rules. First of all, i had a buddy telling me about a ? they had on a rqe he had went to. It was a three dog cast, his dog was split from the other two, a dog fight breaks out on their tree. Hes ask if they should be scratched, and the judge tells him he has to c it before their scratched. Well, thats the way i thought was too. They take the ? back to the club and the two dogs were scratched. Friday night at zone 2 in portland, my buddy got scratch for the same thing except it was a four dog cast but only two dogs were treed. One was deeper in the country, the other wasn't barking but was last heard around the tree. They heard fussing going on at the tree, but didn't see a fight when they got to the tree. The judge scratched the two dogs at the tree, one was winning the cast and hunt was over once they arrived. He tells the two handlers their dogs are scratched. The two handlers ? the call, but the master of hounds, Mr. Larry Hawk informs them that is the rule and the two dogs are scratched. I have my own thoughts about people who are juding and half to do things like that to win, but thats not my ?, is this the correct ruling. I have asked different people and they all have different answers.

Posted by Hokieman on 10-09-2006 03:31 PM:

ON THE BACK OF SCORECARD

6. DOGS WILL BE SCRATCHED:
(a) If a dog has a total of 400 minus points, regardless of how many plus
points the dog has.
(b) Fighting or attempting to fight during the authority of the Judge. Dog’s
name, UKC number and owner’s name will be reported to UKC on Nite Hunt
report form. No handler will be allowed to scratch his dog to avoid dog from
being scratched for fighting.
When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the aggressor
only. If not known, scratch dogs involved.
(c) Attempting to fight is defined as follows: when dog(s) are
interfering with other dog(s) during the authority of the Judge
by aggressive behavior.

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Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 10-09-2006 03:39 PM:

I know where the rules are bud and trust me, ive read them. Do you half to see them fighting, or can u just hear them fighting.

Posted by Kamakee on 10-09-2006 03:39 PM:

In the first incident scratch both dogs at tree.

Second incident, I dont think you can scratch any dog cause three dogs were there and you dont know who the aggressor was.

jmo

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Posted by John D on 10-09-2006 03:44 PM:

If they're fighting, scratch them.

I don't see any gray area in either example you gave, only people that wanted to deny what happened. As far as I can tell, both scenarios were scored correctly, and consistently, imo.

The rules allow you to use all your senses to judge a cast and apply the rules, lol.

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Posted by Hokieman on 10-09-2006 03:49 PM:

When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the aggressor
only. If not known, scratch dogs involved.

Posted by dave hyer on 10-09-2006 03:54 PM:

You should have to see the dogs in order to scratch, unless you see it you don't know for sure they were fighting, coul dbe chewing, or stuck in a fork in a tree, or another dog from a different cast could be in the area, or coyotes could be involved, all those sound pretty stupid, but if you're gonna scratch someone then you better be ****ed sure you know what happened.

Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 10-09-2006 03:55 PM:

Ok, say you have a three dog cast, two dogs are treed, you don't hear the other dog barking and a fight breaks out. You get to the tree and the two dogs treeing are back to treeing and that third dog is just 10 yards away. What gives that judge the right to scratch two dogs and not the third. If thats not a gray area, than i don't know what is. How could you not say that dog not treeing didn't start the hole thing.

Posted by dave hyer on 10-09-2006 04:01 PM:

it also shouldn't be up to just the judge, there should be at least one handler that agrees, I was scratched in a hunt when the judges dog had my dogs butt in it's mouth when we got there, he said my dog was the aggressor because his dog wasn't mean, so he scratched me and not his dog. The other cats memeber said what I said, but the MOH said he wasn't there, so he had to go with the judge. I had first and first on the first tree, and he knew if he didn't get rid o fme he would get his butt kicked. He got rid of me and won the cast, with out treeing another coon in 2 hours. that was 3 min into the hunt.

Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 10-09-2006 04:03 PM:

Dave

Thats exactly how i feel. Its rare that something like that would happen, but it does happen. If you don't see it, than it didn't happen. I know this lets a lot of light broke dogs get by with it, but if you are going to hunt the hunts dogs got to back up or go to the otherside of the tree, or put that dog back. I know a lot people don't agree with this, but its like asking a football player to not hit you in the superbowl game. If you can't handle it, than theres other ways to play the game, if its coonhunting u can go pleasure hunting or play two hand touch in football, lol.

Posted by John D on 10-09-2006 04:31 PM:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making sure I know which dogs are fighting before I scratch them. I've heard of 3 and 4 dogs fights before, so just because there are more than 2 dogs in the area of a dog fight does not give them all a free pass.

I just don't like the idea of a blanket statement that says you have to see them fighting, to scratch them. We've all heard of people that go blind in seeing a coon, next thing we'll have is people that don't see 2 dogs rolling, right in front of them. Or, it will be, "that don't sound too good, lets wait a few more minutes before we go into the tree..."

As far as thats what it takes to play the game, thats crazy. The reason some play the game that way, is only because they can get by with it. Scratch them when it happens and some of these guys will dial back the aggressiveness in their dogs, which is what they should be doing, anyway.

Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 10-09-2006 04:47 PM:

A mean dog should be scratched. Everyone has a opinion on what that is. You can bet they will be hunted when me and you both are gone. Its hard to explain where im coming from, it probably sounds to a lot a like mean dogs. Well, i cant stand one, and if i draw one and can afford to buy it, that will be the last time it will ever be in a hunt. The only way to scratch a dog without seeing it is if you have a two dog cast and a fight breaks out. Theres still some factors that would apply, but over all i think its very important that you see what your scratching. It takes all the what if's out. I could see giving a dog(s) a warning on the first time and scratch on second one. This would only apply to hearing them fight or fussing not seeing them. If you see it, scratch them. But, like i said early, if your wanting to win the hunt you always dreamed about, you better have one with enough sense and pride to move around the tree. Thanks

Tim Bolden

Posted by david white on 10-09-2006 05:07 PM:

Does under the authority of the judge mean anything?

Posted by larrypoe on 10-09-2006 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hokieman
ON THE BACK OF SCORECARD

(c) Attempting to fight is defined as follows: when dog(s) are
interfering with other dog(s) during the authority of the Judge
by aggressive behavior.

First of all I HATE mean dogs. I have one of the best females here I have ever hunted. She has one hole, she will not tree with a rough dog. Not even face barking. She has been chewed up before, and now if it gets rough she gets out of there and comes back when you get to the tree. Instant minuse. She is a ntch with 1 win towards grand, but will probly never finish because of it.

The key here is they have to be:

#1 interfering with other dogs (s)
#2 By agressive behavior.

Its a 2 part requirement and both have to be met. This is the gray area. Is face barking, jacking the tree, Jockying, ect.

#1 agressive behavier
#2 is it interfering with even 1 dog in the cast.

As far as hearing it but not seeing it, I dont see where it reads you have to see it. That being said, say all 4 dogs are on the same tree. A fight, blowing, ect breaks out. Do you want to scratch all 4 dogs. If you do, you draw a mean dog 3 times in a year that cant be caught and yours is barred also.

Thats why I believe it reads "interfering" with other dog (s)

Posted by on 10-09-2006 06:07 PM:

The Advisor plainly states that the judge DOES NOT have to see a dogfight to scratch dogs for fighting. I don't have to see a dog standing on a tree to know it is treed and I don't have to see dogs balled up to know they are fighting.

Posted by george florence on 10-09-2006 07:30 PM:

how about this one?

Last friday night in Scottsville, Ky. I was in a 3 dog nt. ch. cast. 2 females and 1 male, the last tree we made was the only tree with all 3 dogs involved. the two females were treed solid without any fussing, jockeying, or any foolishness whatsoever. When the male dog arrived at the tree ( after they had been treed for about 2 minutes) all hell broke loose and 1 at a time the 2 females quit treeing. My female made 1 more attempt to get back on the tree, and the last sound she made on the tree was her squalling because she was getting eaten up. I can absolutely guarantee my female to be about as aggresive as a field mouse. When we arrived at the tree, both females were off the wood with their tails tucked. The Judge scratched the male dog, as it was evident to all involved (except the male dog's owner) what had happened. Why people feel the need to hunt garbage like that is beyond me Shoot them. or hunt them alone, but don't bring them to a hunt!

Posted by josh on 10-09-2006 07:56 PM:

I have never owned, hunted, seen or smelled a dog that I would gaurentee what it would or wouldent do.

Most people are oblivious to their dogs faults, they just cant or wont admit to themselves any shortcoming in a dog.

Meanness is probably the toughest to admit to...

To be competitive you need a dog that stays treed, salty dogs do this, and occasionally a fight breaks out.

Some have too much salt,

others not enough.

If your playing with salt, and you get burned.....Quit crying,its part of the game.

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Posted by Dealer on 10-09-2006 08:11 PM:

At the World Hunt last year, it was explained to all the judges, myself included that you do not have to see the dog fight to scratch the dogs. It does take some common sense! If you know two dogs are fighting, and you know they are the only two dogs there, then they can be scratched. If there are 3 or 4 dogs there, then you cannot determine who is "involved"

I found this interesting, and something that is difficult to do as a judge. I myself would feel better seeing it!

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Posted by on 10-09-2006 08:43 PM:

george florence, the situation you described is a perfect example of when you C'ANT scratch any dog. Three dogs were there, nobody saw the fight, that judge had no way of knowing which dogs were involved. It was probably the male dog. "Probably" doesn't meet the requirement of the rules. That judge had no choice but to scratch no dogs.

Posted by george florence on 10-09-2006 08:46 PM:

salt

If that is the kind of dog that you like Josh, you can bet your last dollar that I have pulled the trigger on some that you would have been in love with. I admit that sometimes fights just happen, or 2 dogs just don't get along, but when a male dog comes in to a tree and cleans 2 females who are not agressive off of it he needs to eat a bullet. PERIOD!!!!!!! And by the way, I can't guarantee my female to be straight, I can't guarantee that she'll come when I call her, but I will GUARANTEE that she is not agressive! If you have any doubt about what I'm saying ask about her. Her Name is Green Rough River Little Susie, 5 year old B&T female. Anyone who has ever hunted with her will vouch for her. She may be about half nuts, but she isn't mean! Yes I took that one personal.

Posted by george florence on 10-09-2006 08:49 PM:

sorry to have overlooked your reply jim

Yes we had evidence, it was the red stuff dripping out of my females head, ears, and shoulder. And I have hunted more than once with the other female with no problems whatsoever. I'm pretty sure in my mind that the right thing was done.

Posted by on 10-09-2006 08:59 PM:

I don't doubt the judge scratched the right dog but it wasn't supported by the rule. "Evidense" doesn't matter. It is simple enough. You must see the fight unless you positively know only 2 dogs were at the scene. How does that happen? Example: Dog A heard deep right, dog B heard deep left, C and D heard treeing straight ahead, you hear an obvious dogfight straight ahead, you know it can only be C and D because A and B are heard deep the opposit directions. Now, here's another: dog A heard deep left, B,C and D treed straight ahead. Fight breaks out straight ahead but is over before judge can get in to see who is fighting. Despite any "evidense", no dog can be scratched because you cannot be certain which dogs were involved. That is straight out of the Advisor.

Posted by george florence on 10-09-2006 09:09 PM:

can't be certain about which dog is aggressive?

when you have two hard tree dogs that are afraid to get anywhere near the tree as long as the aggressive dog is on it, it's pretty obvious. When the handler pulled his dog back, mine went back on the tree. as soon as his dog touched the tree again mine literally jumped a good 5 feet the opposite direction. The other female never even attempted to go back to it until the male dog was led away from it. Then and only then did she pull back toward that tree. If that's not enough evidence to convict the dog, then maybe I need to start packing a light broke alligator too.

Posted by josh on 10-09-2006 09:13 PM:

Mr. Florence,

I never said anything about your dog or the kind I like, Im sure she is a nice one.

Most often eveyone knows which dog in the cast is causing problems, but you need more than that to scratch.

Im sorry, but You cant just scratch any dog yours wont tree with.

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Posted by josh smedley on 10-09-2006 09:25 PM:

Re: how about this one?

quote:
Originally posted by george florence
Last friday night in Scottsville, Ky. I was in a 3 dog nt. ch. cast. 2 females and 1 male, the last tree we made was the only tree with all 3 dogs involved. the two females were treed solid without any fussing, jockeying, or any foolishness whatsoever. When the male dog arrived at the tree ( after they had been treed for about 2 minutes) all hell broke loose and 1 at a time the 2 females quit treeing. My female made 1 more attempt to get back on the tree, and the last sound she made on the tree was her squalling because she was getting eaten up. I can absolutely guarantee my female to be about as aggresive as a field mouse. When we arrived at the tree, both females were off the wood with their tails tucked. The Judge scratched the male dog, as it was evident to all involved (except the male dog's owner) what had happened. Why people feel the need to hunt garbage like that is beyond me Shoot them. or hunt them alone, but don't bring them to a hunt!

Was this call questioned? If it was any MOH with any common sense would have overturned the call. You probably did scratch the right dog but probably is not good enough.

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