UKC Forums - All Grand ... Good Or Not?

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-- All Grand ... Good Or Not? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=111122)

Posted by jay brademeyer on 09-12-2006 05:57 PM:

All Grand ... Good Or Not?

I SEE WAY TO MANY FEMALES OUT OF ALL GRAND PED. BEING BRED BEFORE THEY ARE STARTED. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING . JUST BECAUSE A DOG HAS A ALL GRAND PED DOESN,T AUTOMATICLY MEAN IT IS WORTHY OF THE BREEDING PEN. THIS KIND OF BACK YARD MINDLESS BREEDING IS NOT GOING TO HELP.
...WILL SOME OF THESE DOGS TURN OUT? SURTANLY , BUT LETS SEE WHAT THEY ARE BEFORE WE BREED THEM.ALSO DON'T BY PUPS FROM SOMEONE THAT HAS AN ALL GRAND GYP THAT HASN'T BEEN IN THE WOODS YET.

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Posted by on 09-12-2006 06:02 PM:

How do you get pups out of an All Grand if the bitch hasn't even started???

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-12-2006 06:08 PM:

breeding them!!LOL

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Posted by jay brademeyer on 09-12-2006 06:08 PM:

I WOULD IMAGINE YOU WOULD EXPOSE THEM TO A MALE. WHAT I'M SAYING HERE IS WAY TO MANY FE OUT OF THESE ALL GRAND PED. GRANTED SHE IS NOT GRANDED YET, BUT THEY ARE BREEDING THESE FE THINKING THEY CAN RAISE SOME PUPS THAT WILL SELL. THESE DOGS SHOULDN'T BE BRED UNTIL THEY ARE PROVEN.

Posted by rgregory on 09-12-2006 06:15 PM:

Then several may never be bred !

Posted by on 09-12-2006 06:19 PM:

Jay, even if that bitch is all grand, if she has even started yet her pups will be paperd as off a "Pr" bitch. Nobody is looking to pay $1000.00 for any "Pr" puppy. Around here you can't even give away "Pr" pups.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-12-2006 06:33 PM:

My favorite is then they say this female will be finished this fall/spring or as soon as the pups are weaned. How often do you think that happens??

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Posted by Christy on 09-12-2006 07:20 PM:

Re: All Grand ... Good Or Not?

quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
I SEE WAY TO MANY FEMALES OUT OF ALL GRAND PED. BEING BRED BEFORE THEY ARE STARTED. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING . JUST BECAUSE A DOG HAS A ALL GRAND PED DOESN,T AUTOMATICLY MEAN IT IS WORTHY OF THE BREEDING PEN. THIS KIND OF BACK YARD MINDLESS BREEDING IS NOT GOING TO HELP.
...WILL SOME OF THESE DOGS TURN OUT? SURTANLY , BUT LETS SEE WHAT THEY ARE BEFORE WE BREED THEM.ALSO DON'T BY PUPS FROM SOMEONE THAT HAS AN ALL GRAND GYP THAT HASN'T BEEN IN THE WOODS YET.

I'VE NEVER BEEN THAT HOT ON ALL GRANDS. SURE SKEETER'S PEDIGREE WOULD BE ALL GRAND IF SHE WAS, BUT SHE IS NOT IN OUR KENNEL BECAUSE OF HER PEDIGREE.

WITH US, COON DOGS COME FIRST, PEDIGREES SECOND. SURE IT'S NICE TO HAVE A NICE LOOKING PEDIGREE ON PUPS.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND IS THIS.

EVERYONE WANTS TO GET BACK THE "COON DOGS LIKE WE USED TO HAVE" LOOK BACK AT ALL THE "COON DOGS" BACK THEN, AND SEE HOW MANY HAD "ALL GRAND PEDIGREES."

NONE. MOST WERE PR WITH A COUPLE OF NTCH OR GRNTCH IF YOU WERE LUCKY.

IF PEOPLE WOULD GET BACK TO BREEDING FOR COON DOGS, AND NOT PEDIGREED PUPS I THINK THEY WOULD BE ALOT MORE SATISFIED WITH THE OUTCOME.

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Posted by John D on 09-12-2006 07:33 PM:

I don't see buying a pup just because its got an All Grand pedigree being any worse than some of the other reasons people buy pups from certain crosses.

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-12-2006 07:36 PM:

There is really nothing inherently wrong with the all grand pup/dog.

The problem lies in the fact that ALOT of hunters are buying pups or breeding to studs from far away. They are basing their decision souly on the pedigree/photos and in a best case scenerio a night or two with the stud.

Not so long ago, before all of the media we have available now, the world was a much smaller place and people did not know that much about what was outside their own backyard. They didn't care so much about pedigrees simply bacause they bred to what was the best dog around. There were very few "all grand pedigrees" because it hadn't become a reality yet. People were breeding with alot more insight to the actual hounds performance than what his magazine add said.

All this being said, I think the dogs we have today are better than the dogs that "used to be" because there are still people out there breeding to what they know instead of what they see.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-12-2006 07:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
There is really nothing inherently wrong with the all grand pup/dog.

I agree with Briar here....

However, when a cross is made simply because the resulting offspring will be "all grand"...that is where they get cross threaded.....

A good cross is a good cross regardless of any other consideration, regarless of whether mom and dad ever went to town to a hunt. Having an all grand pedigree is one thing...having an all coondog pedigree is rare even in today's world.

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Posted by Tim Green on 09-12-2006 08:00 PM:

Oak Ridge,
You are right on the money. I will take an all coondog pedigree anyday over an all grand. Papers don't tree coons, but unfortunately our favorite past time has become a business to some folks and it does take papers to sale pups in most cases.

Tim

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Posted by on 09-12-2006 08:43 PM:

The pups in Jay's example would not even result in offspring that were all grand.

Posted by ItsOlMander on 09-12-2006 09:54 PM:

i completely agree with you- just because the dog, male or female, has a certin pedigree (bloodline, all grand, or whatever) dosnt make them worth anymore than my neighbors poodle if they cant tree a coon. have we forgotten our kindergarden math? one plus one equal two and breed coondogs to coondogs to get coondogs. my great grandfather would never breed a young dog- i think the youngest female he ever bred was 3yrs old and she was broke and finished and would flat tree a coon. he wouldnt buy a pup from a breeding "to settle down a female" either... let the dogs mature, finish em and make sure theyre coondogs and then worry about breeding em to another good dog where their attributes compliment each other and cover the other dogs weak spots- your pups will turn out to be better dogs.

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Posted by COOMER on 09-12-2006 10:04 PM:

Re: All Grand ... Good Or Not?

quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
I SEE WAY TO MANY FEMALES OUT OF ALL GRAND PED. BEING BRED BEFORE THEY ARE STARTED. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING . JUST BECAUSE A DOG HAS A ALL GRAND PED DOESN,T AUTOMATICLY MEAN IT IS WORTHY OF THE BREEDING PEN. THIS KIND OF BACK YARD MINDLESS BREEDING IS NOT GOING TO HELP.
...WILL SOME OF THESE DOGS TURN OUT? SURTANLY , BUT LETS SEE WHAT THEY ARE BEFORE WE BREED THEM.ALSO DON'T BY PUPS FROM SOMEONE THAT HAS AN ALL GRAND GYP THAT HASN'T BEEN IN THE WOODS YET.

truth be none you shoulnt bred any female untill she has proven her self this include any female from single registered to a all grand .,the same goes for the male dog so lets not single out the all grands because your chances would be better with one because years of hard work has gone in to there breeding............

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Posted by wade hahn on 09-12-2006 10:15 PM:

you no what Ollie said "you breed one little runt pig to anouther litttle runt pig you dont get much"

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-12-2006 10:21 PM:

you

can't tell me the all grands came from strictley breeding traits , they came from breeding title to title with maybe a little thought about traits. the rare and the expensive,they were created for big sales. just like the worldch. to worldch. cross in the 90's which didn't pan out!!

Posted by COOMER on 09-12-2006 10:25 PM:

dandog

i can tell you they have proven themself in the hunts..............our they wouldnt have there tittles..............

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-12-2006 10:27 PM:

i got proof

if i can find there remains!!!

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-12-2006 10:36 PM:

percenage wise

they are no better than a stud that is not all grand. but there may be a few that are above average reproducers. same goes with the (not all grand). the only difference is the money spent. the people that pay $200 for a pup will cull quicker then the ones that pay $1000 for one

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-12-2006 10:45 PM:

Re: dandog

quote:
Originally posted by COOMER
i can tell you they have proven themself in the hunts..............our they wouldnt have there tittles..............

Now I agree with this to a point, but I think the longer that I am in this game, the more I realize that there are a ton of different kinds of dogs that can wear the title GR. NT. While they are all dogs that can obviously tree a coon to some level or another, ALOT of them may not be the kind of dog that I like to hunt.

A pups is a big investment of money, time and energy. I just can't see investing this kind of effort into a pup that is all grand or not if they turn out just like they are bred to and I don't like that style of dog.

I guess the moral of the story for me personally is that I would much rather have a pup out of a litter of untitled dogs that I have hunted with and experienced first hand than an all grand pup out of 20 dogs I have never seen go. I am not a breeder and have never rasied a litter so as long as the dog I am hunting is what I like, that is all I need.

Now for someone who is working on the next big super stud, or raising all grand litters, you would be a fool to hunt anything but all grand pups because it will become increasingly more difficult to promote that stud or sell those pups without it.

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Posted by on 09-12-2006 11:40 PM:

Well everyone on the planet seems to agree that all grands are a curse of some sort and nobody wants one so who is buying all those all grands?

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-12-2006 11:45 PM:

must

be you jim!!

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-12-2006 11:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well everyone on the planet seems to agree that all grands are a curse of some sort and nobody wants one so who is buying all those all grands?

I think all grand is great. I have no issue with it whatsoever, but ideally I would have some kind of exerience with the hounds on the pedigree.

Like I said before, if I loved to raised dogs, title them, and sell them, raise pups, or was looking for my next stud, there is NO WAY I would be hunting anything but all grand. Your pup out of all grand has just as good if not better chance of making it, and if it does, that pedigree will make it a WHOLE lot better investment than any dog that does not have all grand.

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The fun is over once you pull the trigger

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Posted by on 09-13-2006 12:10 AM:

Dan, the last couple years I have just taken what is gived to me. And it shows!

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