UKC Forums - UKC is going to be the new CKC ??

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Posted by Bijoupoodles on 04-10-2010 12:22 AM:

UKC is going to be the new CKC ??

OK got your attention

CKC says they are going bankrupt.
MANY CKC members "could be" coming to UKC to register their dogs and participate in events.

I would like to make a few suggestions that will make UKC possibly appeal to even those that are hesitant.

Let me say this before you read on.
I totally understand AKC is a for profit club but you can't knock success so perhaps UKC might "observe" and take from that club what they feel will best meet client needs and be financially feasible (?).

1. UKC should examine the AKC registration forms.
Breeders like myself, prefer to sell our pups on "limited" registration to pet owners because we don't wish for them to be breeding their "PETS". Currently UKC registration papers do not have an area to tick or remove to limit registration to "non-breeding”. Someone told me a solution would be to "co-own" the puppy. Well I don't wish to be financially or legally responsible for what someone else does or doesn't do with their puppy AND puppy buyers don't want to co-own their puppy that they purchase either.
Currently the "open" registration is what is standing between UKC and many new Breeders.

2. UKC should look at the AKC web page and how they keep a data base for members so that I can be anywhere in the world ...log on .. go to the Litter Registration area...use the drop down menu to find the dogs that the “Breeder" has input (on dogs that they own and only "they" would know the correct numbers to input to sign them up (i.e. Certificate issue date, names and numbers of the sire and the dam and birth date) then point and click and the Litter registration form is pretty much filled out. Payment is also done online using credit card but PayPal would work as well. UKC could even charge a fee for being an "online member" and storage of data (I know I would pay for the convenience) and access to the online magazines as well all for a membership fee. Call it "going green" save money on paper, save a tree, save time, save manpower, be more client friendly.

4. One thing that no club is doing "yet" and I would certainly weigh the pros and cons...is keeping an online data base for maintaining "Breeders" breeding records. IF I was UKC I would seriously look into this, as UKC could get email addresses of MANY people that UKC could send information electronically to, to entice them to partake in events, lectures, health testing and membership and even offering education to. Breeders like myself would enjoy the ease of using a computer program, that we can also use to track our pups and their accomplishments with (constantly updated by computer).

5. I do believe in giving credit where credit is due:
a) I have to give cudo’s to UKC for the registration and pedigree form that is sent out to owners…wow so impressive !

b) I also have to give credit to the club for having friendly, FRIENDLY and accessible staff via email and also by phone to answer questions quickly and being well informed.

c) UKC show venues are also EXTREMLY fun and friendly and encouraging to attend. I have never experienced such camaraderie at any other venue.

Good luck !! Amazing club and it would be nice to see UKC do, what CKC failed to do which in part is listening to what the masses say they need and implementing changes as required (being proactive instead of reactive when it is too late).

I Do like the suggestion that was made to have the clubs post the results of their dog shows, either on their own web page or on the UKC web page as I agree it would be nice to know who the dogs were that were in attendance.

Just a bit about bloodlines.....If membership wants access to the Bloodlines magazine electronically, then I think UKC should seriously consider offering it that way as well. Membership would sign up for a fee and have to log in to access it. If I understand correctly this would not be a major cost factor (?)

I really love the ability to be anywhere in the world (ok or at work on break) and be able to access information, purchase things and to be able to network and gain information online instantly. I'm really hoping UKC does utilize and implement more web services, (paper free) as would make my life easier

Just my .02

__________________
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity"

Posted by IlonaVizslas on 04-10-2010 04:57 AM:

Sounds to me from this letter sent to AKC delegates they will try to not let the CKC go under...guess time will tell.
Can you imagine having $50 million in reserves?? They were sure making some big $$ in years past!

Dear Delegate:
We are writing to you so that you are aware of the facts concerning the Canadian Kennel Club and to put rumors to rest.
It is true that the Canadian Kennel Club sent a bulletin to their members describing that they are “in the midst of a financial crisis.” The reasons they state are very similar to those faced by kennel clubs around the world. Even though the economy in Canada is better than in America , the CKC has experienced declines in registration, entries, and membership. Their losses were in both the CKC organization as well as their publishing company, Apex. Unfortunately, as a result they have found themselves in a deficit position in terms of cash flow as their reserves were not sufficient to support their financial situation. Over the last few days we, along with our Chief Financial Officer Jim Stevens, have had conference calls with Joe Mauro , CKC’s Chief Executive Officer. We hope that the Canadian Kennel Club will make a full recovery as their organization is functioning, registrations are being processed, and entries and shows are continuing as always.
Chairman Dwain McLean voluntarily and temporarily stepped aside due to a family crisis. Under the leadership of Interim Chair Lee Steeves, the organization is facing their problems and they have appealed to their membership and clubs to assist with donations and have also implemented fees to increase revenue while she and their Board address expenditures, services, and obligations.

We along with AKC Management are addressing areas where we may be able to lend assistance to our neighbors with whom we have had an excellent relationship for almost one hundred years.

This unfortunate situation can trace its roots to a number of causes beyond today’s challenging economic conditions including changes in society, running a not-for-profit business in an increasingly competitive atmosphere, and lacking ample reserves.

As we have been reporting over the last few years and most recently at last month’s Delegate Meeting, the Board and Management of the American Kennel Club have diligently placed over $50 million in reserves so that it would be unlikely we are faced with a lack of adequate reserves. We continue to manage our organization’s finances conservatively and in line with our independent accounting firm’s recommendations.

The American Kennel Club will continue to lend assistance where possible to Lee, Joe and their team as we are dedicated to the well-being of the Canadian Kennel Club, its breeders, judges, and exhibitors.

Ronald H. Menaker Dennis B. Sprung

Chairman President and CEO

__________________
Lisa
www.IlonaVizslas.com
Home to "Breeze" aka: M-BISS, M-BIMBS, GRCH. Vidor's Aura, TAN

Posted by vomhausHuro on 04-10-2010 09:02 PM:

Excellent post and points! I agree with you that the online features would be an asset to both breeders and exhibitors and would surely sign up for an online service if one were to be offered.

Also, I agree on the environment comments. NO show venue is as friendly and welcoming as UKC is. I kenneled next to you at a show and had a wonderful time with you as a 'neighbor' and would gladly do it again.

Posted by jbstrmd on 04-17-2010 01:22 AM:

I have recently begun showing in UKC - both my dogs have a UCDX. I really enjoy the shows I have attended. I agree about having more information available on line. In the AKC I just have to log in as a member & can look up the points progression of any dog that I know the registration number or complete name of. This way I can keep track of my dog's points & find out if any mistakes were made in my record keeping or theirs. That service is free, but for a small fee I can download the rankings of my breed or group or my dog's entire show record.

__________________
Judy Streisand
OTCH UCDX Panda UDX3 RA MX MXJ CGC ASCA CD (PRT)
UCDX Bunny CD RN AX AXJ CGC ASCA CD (Pap)

Posted by Maverick061106 on 04-19-2010 03:35 PM:

I agree that more web services would make record keeping much easier.

The only thing I do not like the sound of is implememnting the "Limited" registration option. I do not want someone charging me extra for a puppy just because I might plan on breeding it in the future. Also, what if the pup changes owners in the future and the new owner wants to show/breed the dog? This option is overused, IMO, and I would never purchase a puppy from someone who puts limitations on my dog.

The only time I have ever needed an option such as this was when I had a pup born here with an overbite. Every other puppy in the litter was physically sound and are all turning into respectable hunting dogs. I made an agreement with the new owners of the pup with the overbite that they would have him neutered as soon as possible because of this, and they did. A simple written contract between buyer and seller should suffice for such a purpose, stating that the pup with X condition is to be altered. There should be a viable reason for limiting registration, other than simply on the whim of the breeder...

This is just my opinion, please do not take offense to it. I'll be the first to admit, I am not the most educated on how a limited registration works. As I said, I will not buy a pup I do not have full rights over. If it is my dog, I feel I should be able to do whatever I like with it.

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by AnkhuIGs on 04-19-2010 08:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick061106
I agree that more web services would make record keeping much easier.

The only thing I do not like the sound of is implememnting the "Limited" registration option. I do not want someone charging me extra for a puppy just because I might plan on breeding it in the future. Also, what if the pup changes owners in the future and the new owner wants to show/breed the dog? This option is overused, IMO, and I would never purchase a puppy from someone who puts limitations on my dog..

Those are things that should be negotiated with the breeder before purchasing a dog.

IF a breeder sells you a dog with a limited registration it is because the breeder does not feel this dog is of quality to contribute to a breeding program.

If you feel a limited registration infringes on your rights to use that Uterus and Penis as you see fit..then do not buy the dog.

No responsible...or quality breeder i know charges any more or any less for a dog with or without Limited or full registration. If they do, perhaps your looking at the wrong breeders.

__________________
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Home of Multi-BIS U-GrCh, Multi Group Winning/Placing AKC Bronze GCh, MBIS/MRBIS Int'l Ch, CKC Ch. Pineridge-Anji's St. Cecilia

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No part of this message may be forwarded without permission

Posted by Maverick061106 on 04-19-2010 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by AnkhuIGs
No responsible...or quality breeder i know charges any more or any less for a dog with or without Limited or full registration. If they do, perhaps your looking at the wrong breeders.

I see local classifieds often that advertise different prices for the same puppy, depending on whether the potential buyer wants full or limited "pet" registration. I also worked for a kennel a few years ago who sold thier puppies on this basis: $400 with "pet" reg, $600 with full reg, etc. I cannot say whether these folks are reputable breeders or not (although I would guess not). As I said, I do not agree with it and would not purchase a pup from a breeder who practices as such.

My first registered dog was purchased with the full intent of being a pet, but after I was introduced to showing and other competitive activities a year after purchasing him, he was on his way to becoming a grand show champ and is soon to be introduced to weight pull. By being misused, I feel the "limited" registration discourages folks to participate in registry activities with thier dog. If I end up with an exceptional dog who is well-bred and titled, why should I have to refrain from breeding him just because his original purpose was to be a pet?

A solution to this misuse would be for the registry to require a legitimate reason for limiting the registration of a puppy...

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by AnkhuIGs on 04-19-2010 10:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick061106
I see local classifieds often that advertise different prices for the same puppy, depending on whether the potential buyer wants full or limited "pet" registration. I also worked for a kennel a few years ago who sold thier puppies on this basis: $400 with "pet" reg, $600 with full reg, etc. I cannot say whether these folks are reputable breeders or not (although I would guess not). As I said, I do not agree with it and would not purchase a pup from a breeder who practices as such.

My first registered dog was purchased with the full intent of being a pet, but after I was introduced to showing and other competitive activities a year after purchasing him, he was on his way to becoming a grand show champ and is soon to be introduced to weight pull. By being misused, I feel the "limited" registration discourages folks to participate in registry activities with thier dog. If I end up with an exceptional dog who is well-bred and titled, why should I have to refrain from breeding him just because his original purpose was to be a pet?

A solution to this misuse would be for the registry to require a legitimate reason for limiting the registration of a puppy...

Note i SAID..."no responsible or quality Breeder".

Limited does not limit you from participating in registry activities with your dog..it prevents you from registering in the AKC any get you have from breeding it. If all you want is a dog to breed, then there are hundreds irresponsible and bad breeders who will sell you a dog you can breed whenever, to whatever you want, and as often as you want.

The misuse to Limited is NOT on the breeders side...it is on the owners side who decides to go against the intention of a Limited Registration. Plain...and Simple.

it still comes down to this...if you do not want to honor a Limited Registration, then do not buy the dog.

Posted by Houndawgs on 04-19-2010 10:37 PM:

Why does UKC need to be anybody other than UKC?

Posted by Unclerock on 04-19-2010 11:21 PM:

If the CKC members want to come to the UKC. Let them adjust to the UKC's way of doing things, not the other way around.
Can the UKC improve? Yes they can and they do make improvements all the time.
While I'm far from a UKC cheerleader (I figure my picture gets taped on the dart board once in awhile) Lets give credit where credit is due!
Hats off!
It is a big job, they did not get to be the Oldest & Largest Performance Dog Registry in the World by trying to emulate how faltering registries do business.
Rock

Posted by RallyDachshund on 04-20-2010 12:30 AM:

I agree that an online look up of points and awards would be nice as ASCA and AKC both have that. As for limited reg I don't care whether they have that or not as all my pet pups go without papers until I get proof of neutering anyway. Currently UKC will register an AKC limited dog with full registration anyway

__________________
Terri Frenia
Ripley Hill Dachshunds
www.ripleyhill.com

Home of:
Am/Can/Ukc Gr CH UR01 Packer's Quarterback Sneak RE NJP ASCA CD CGC
BIMBS Am/Ukc CH Grandgables Spoonful O Sugar ML
Am/Ukc CH RHills Constellation MS
Ukc CH Geebear's Firebending Warrior RN
Ukc Ch UR01 R'Hills Intoxicating ML RN
Ukc Ch R'Hills Sneakin Some Sugar ML
Ukc Ch Laurjosh's Ticket To Ride MW

Posted by Maverick061106 on 04-20-2010 01:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by AnkhuIGs
Note i SAID..."no responsible or quality Breeder".

Limited does not limit you from participating in registry activities with your dog..it prevents you from registering in the AKC any get you have from breeding it. If all you want is a dog to breed, then there are hundreds irresponsible and bad breeders who will sell you a dog you can breed whenever, to whatever you want, and as often as you want.

The misuse to Limited is NOT on the breeders side...it is on the owners side who decides to go against the intention of a Limited Registration. Plain...and Simple.

it still comes down to this...if you do not want to honor a Limited Registration, then do not buy the dog.

I believe you are missing my point...

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by symetri on 04-23-2010 04:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RallyDachshund
Currently UKC will register an AKC limited dog with full registration anyway

Terri, this is an excellent point. And it is the reason that I will NOT, EVER, register my litters of puppies with the UKC (unless this policy is changed). My litters are all AKC-registered...UKC loses all those registration fees because I require my pet quality puppies to be spayed/neutered. Why? Because they have been evaluated as being not of a quality to reproduce!

The only way I can protect my breed, my reputation, and my kennel name from this very questionable UKC practice is to ensure that my pet quality puppies are spayed/neutered prior to providing the owners with AKC registration papers, which is exactly what I do.

If you want a quality dog that you can breed, then pay for a quality dog. A good breeder evaluates (and prices) each puppy based on its individual merits, not on what the future owner intends to do with the dog. It is highly unfortunate that UKC does not respect the integrity of the breeders trying to protect their breed's gene pool. I enjoy UKC and I support them, but the policy of giving full UKC registration to designated AKC pets is a something I neither understand nor support.

__________________
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Symetri Ridgebacks, reg.
Breeding quality with integrity since 1987
www.symetri.net

BREEDER/OWNER OF:
BIMBS U-GrCh, Am/Can CH Symetri Easy On The Heart, JC, BN, CGC, TT, HIC
BIMBS U-GrCh, CH Symetri's Code Red, CGC, TT, HIC
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BREEDER OF:
BIMBS U-GrCh, GCH Symetri Vikela Mischief Manged, JC, HIC (AKC Top 10)
(BIMBS winner of the 2009 TX Classic)

Posted by Maverick061106 on 04-23-2010 05:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by symetri
And it is the reason that I will NOT, EVER, register my litters of puppies with the UKC (unless this policy is changed). My litters are all AKC-registered...UKC loses all those registration fees because I require my pet quality puppies to be spayed/neutered. Why? Because they have been evaluated as being not of a quality to reproduce!

I am not accusing anyone of anything here and I hope it is not taken the wrong way, but I'm sure I will get chewed on for this. Here goes...

Symetri, how can you evaluate an eight-week-old puppy and know whether it is going to be breeding or showing material? I know I can't... many faults do not show up in a dog until later in life, and some (such as an off bite) can occaisionally grow out of a pup. I know this from experience.

Our main concern when breeding is to produce hounds who are show and hunt material. Thus, we WANT all our puppies, if possible, to go to homes where they will be shown and hunted. In regards to the people I sell my puppies to, I EXPECT them to show and hunt thier dogs. I would not be satisfied in the least if we produced numbers of pups who are not of the caliber we strive for and ended up having to sell them as "pet" quality. Those puppies are culls, in my opinion, and should be altered or destroyed.

Unless your puppies are born with a bad overbite/underbite or other obvious flaws, how do you know what is "pet quality" at that young age? And if your puppies are consistently being born as "pet quality" with faults that keep it from being show quality or breeding quality, why do you continue to produce pups of this caliber, and what does that say about your breeding practices?

quote:
Originally posted by symetri
The only way I can protect my breed, my reputation, and my kennel name from this very questionable UKC practice is to ensure that my pet quality puppies are spayed/neutered prior to providing the owners with AKC registration papers, which is exactly what I do.

I have had one puppy born with an overbite. He was the runt of the litter and even at an older age I could tell he wasn't going to grow out of it. After the new owners sent me proof of neuter, then I sent them the UKC puppy papers. It may take a little more effort, but works just as well.

quote:
Originally posted by symetri
If you want a quality dog that you can breed, then pay for a quality dog. A good breeder evaluates (and prices) each puppy based on its individual merits, not on what the future owner intends to do with the dog. It is highly unfortunate that UKC does not respect the integrity of the breeders trying to protect their breed's gene pool. I enjoy UKC and I support them, but the policy of giving full UKC registration to designated AKC pets is a something I neither understand nor support.

A good breeder works towards producing puppies that accurately conform to the breed standard. In my breed of choice, we must also strive to produce puppies who have skills that can be put to use in the hunting world. I know not all breeds have such multipurpose expectations, and irresponsible breeders breeding just to make money off of puppies certainly puts a hurting on the breeders who do act responsibly, but there is still a standard to go by. Whether you are breeding for a companion or a hunting dog, the standard should still apply...

__________________
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Posted by RallyDachshund on 04-23-2010 07:53 PM:

At 8 weeks generally what you see is what you get as far as what they will turn out to be. Yes sometimes the bites correct and if the puppy is really nice I will grow it out a bit longer. Some breeds breed more true then other breeds. In breeds such as shelties there is an over and undersize limit. We can tell pretty early on which puppies will make the size limit. There aren't always enough show pups to go around either so pups need to go to pet homes and any pup going to a pet home from my house gets spay or neutered.

Posted by AnkhuIGs on 04-23-2010 08:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by symetri
Terri, this is an excellent point. And it is the reason that I will NOT, EVER, register my litters of puppies with the UKC (unless this policy is changed). My litters are all AKC-registered...UKC loses all those registration fees because I require my pet quality puppies to be spayed/neutered. Why? Because they have been evaluated as being not of a quality to reproduce!

The only way I can protect my breed, my reputation, and my kennel name from this very questionable UKC practice is to ensure that my pet quality puppies are spayed/neutered prior to providing the owners with AKC registration papers, which is exactly what I do.

If you want a quality dog that you can breed, then pay for a quality dog. A good breeder evaluates (and prices) each puppy based on its individual merits, not on what the future owner intends to do with the dog. It is highly unfortunate that UKC does not respect the integrity of the breeders trying to protect their breed's gene pool. I enjoy UKC and I support them, but the policy of giving full UKC registration to designated AKC pets is a something I neither understand nor support.

There is a very easy way to overcome the UKC giving registraiton to AKC Limited registered dogs.

To me..it is worth the pitance of cash to register my litters in the UKC. Registration papers come to me. Since my contracts are based on AKC registration, i simply never give them the UKC registration papers. IF they try and circumvent the contract and attempt to single register in the UKC...they will find they are unable to , as i have already registered the litter, and they have to contact me...to get the papers. its unlikely ..at that point...that i would do so

Posted by gemdach on 04-24-2010 11:06 AM:

RallyDachshund....................your process of not giving pet owners their papers until the dog is neutered is great.....until the said pet owner calls AKC. I was personally told by a "higher up" in AKC <during a conversation> that all rights can be suspended for a breeder not issuing papers when the dog is released to the new owner. If you read any rules about breeding/breeders from AKC they say the breeder MUST supply registration papers when the pup leaves the breeder.
As for evaluating pups..............you are so right. Being in Dachshunds for 25 yrs (AKC,CKC & UKC conformation and performance) I grade my pups at 7-8 weeks. What my dogs are at 7-8 weeks is what they are as adults. And if you know your lines you know if there will be possible bite issues or not.
Meg Williamson
Gemdach Dachshunds
Home of AKC CH/U-GR CH Gemdach Red Alert
2005 Top Ten Winner

Posted by RallyDachshund on 04-24-2010 12:27 PM:

You can withhold papers only if you have a contract with the buyer. I always sell my dogs on spay/neuter contracts that state they will get papers when the dog is altered which then complies with AKC rules.

Posted by AnkhuIGs on 04-24-2010 01:15 PM:

exactly. IF your contract says you supply AKC papers, then you DO have to supply them, BUT, if terms are specified such as "when proof of spay/neuter is provided, on said puppy/dog, then AKC papers will be signed over into the purchasers name..."

It has to be specified that it is a term within the contract. You are supplying AKC papers, but you have specified the terms under which those papers will be supplied. When the criteria is met, papers will be signed over... simple.

Or....i register all puppies in my name in the AKC.... You want the papers, then you HAVE to complete the terms of the contract. This way i insure my pet puppies are registered, and hey..if they do not fill out the papers and send them in....at least they are registered. AND....registering the puppies in my name first, assures me that the new owner cannot change the dogs name without my permission.

Same with the UKC, if they want the UKC papers, then i will pay for and send in the registration. THen i am ASSURED...the name remains as i specified it, and it is an AND registration.

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